Discussion:
Do women talk differently to men?
(too old to reply)
AWILLIS957
2004-05-18 21:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Do women talk differently to men?

Apparently, Jane Austen never wrote scenes of men talking alone together
because she didn't feel well-enough informed. Do the sexes talk differently
when alone together?

One good thing about Reality TV is that it offers the opportunity to eavesdrop
on members of the opposite sex talking to each other alone ( I couldn't care
less about the nudity; I'm a dialogue perv) - if being watched by millions of
viewers can be called being alone. Studies have shown that women interrupt far
less often than men. When they're alone with each other in a non-conflict
situation they appear, in Reality Shows at least, not so much to take turns to
speak as to create a combined voice, in an instinctive attempt to empathise
with each other and provide support. Take this exchange, which I jotted down
from last year's Big Brother:

STEPH
I totally feel that my nose is dirty all the time.

NUSH
I know.

But how can she know that? What is she saying, that she instinctively knows it?
That she's noticed Steph blowing her nose? That she herself has a runny nose,
because of the air-conditioning in the environment they share? Or that she just
shares a sense of ill-health? Here's another typical exchange:

STEPH
I just want to . . .

NUSH
Have a good time.

STEPH
It's because it's nominations.

NUSH
As well.

These women, who don't know each other well (so this isn't about established
intimacy) seem to be creating a mirroring improvisation, in which they seek to
merge into one.

First, I don't see how Nush can possibly know what Steph was about to say; even
so she finishes her sentence and isn't contradicted, as if the two of them are
allowing meanings to shift after utterance, to a compromise pooint between
them. Steph's next comment, about the nominations, seems to indicate that she
wasn't going to say what Nush thought she was going to say; and so Nush comes
out with this odd "as well" to vaguely tether the strands together. The
important thing is the establishing of a contact between them - the phatic
communion - not the content.

Do you take things like that into account while writing your dialogue?
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-18 22:09:56 UTC
Permalink
Interesting questions that *may* disclose more about you than about
the subject you're probing. So here is a question or two right back
atcha!

1. WHY do you think "all" women behave in the same way.

2. WHY do you think women always behave/talk to each othr in the
saame way all of the time.

3. WHY do you think that women -- or men, for that matter -- are
"mental zebras" all painted with the same mental/personality stripes?

5. And this is the last question, at least for now. WHY do you think
ANYONE chatting "spontaneously" in front of a camera is really being
"spontaneous?" The camera modifies! Actors are paid well because
they have the ability to make an audience (and others) think they are
not "playing to the camera" when, in fact, they are. The camera
*always* modifies.

Caroline
Unless it's "Candid." '-)
Post by AWILLIS957
Do women talk differently to men?
Apparently, Jane Austen never wrote scenes of men talking alone together
because she didn't feel well-enough informed. Do the sexes talk differently
when alone together?
One good thing about Reality TV is that it offers the opportunity to eavesdrop
on members of the opposite sex talking to each other alone ( I couldn't care
less about the nudity; I'm a dialogue perv) - if being watched by millions of
viewers can be called being alone. Studies have shown that women interrupt far
less often than men. When they're alone with each other in a non-conflict
situation they appear, in Reality Shows at least, not so much to take turns to
speak as to create a combined voice, in an instinctive attempt to empathise
with each other and provide support. Take this exchange, which I jotted down
STEPH
I totally feel that my nose is dirty all the time.
NUSH
I know.
But how can she know that? What is she saying, that she instinctively knows it?
That she's noticed Steph blowing her nose? That she herself has a runny nose,
because of the air-conditioning in the environment they share? Or that she just
STEPH
I just want to . . .
NUSH
Have a good time.
STEPH
It's because it's nominations.
NUSH
As well.
These women, who don't know each other well (so this isn't about established
intimacy) seem to be creating a mirroring improvisation, in which they seek to
merge into one.
First, I don't see how Nush can possibly know what Steph was about to say; even
so she finishes her sentence and isn't contradicted, as if the two of them are
allowing meanings to shift after utterance, to a compromise pooint between
them. Steph's next comment, about the nominations, seems to indicate that she
wasn't going to say what Nush thought she was going to say; and so Nush comes
out with this odd "as well" to vaguely tether the strands together. The
important thing is the establishing of a contact between them - the phatic
communion - not the content.
Do you take things like that into account while writing your dialogue?
AWILLIS957
2004-05-19 00:07:38 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
From: "Otto Mation (Caroline Freise
Interesting questions that *may* disclose more about you than about
the subject you're probing. So here is a question or two right back
atcha!
1. WHY do you think "all" women behave in the same way.
2. WHY do you think women always behave/talk to each othr in the
saame way all of the time.
3. WHY do you think that women -- or men, for that matter -- are
"mental zebras" all painted with the same mental/personality stripes?
5. And this is the last question, at least for now. WHY do you think
ANYONE chatting "spontaneously" in front of a camera is really being
"spontaneous?" The camera modifies! Actors are paid well because
they have the ability to make an audience (and others) think they are
not "playing to the camera" when, in fact, they are. The camera
*always* modifies.
Well, the answer is that I don't think any of these things. It's a discussion
topic. I did say

" . . . they appear, in Reality Shows at least, not so much to take turns
to
Post by AWILLIS957
speak as to create a combined voice, in an instinctive attempt to empathise
with each other and provide support.
This is neither a blanket statement nor a criticism. And this
if being watched by millions of
Post by AWILLIS957
viewers can be called being alone.
acknowledges the artificiality of the situation.

If my post came over as a narrow-minded criticism of women, then I give up.
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-19 04:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by AWILLIS957
Well, the answer is that I don't think any of these things. It's a discussion
topic. I did say
" . . . they appear, in Reality Shows at least, not so much to take turns
Post by AWILLIS957
to
Post by AWILLIS957
speak as to create a combined voice, in an instinctive attempt to empathise
with each other and provide support.
This is neither a blanket statement nor a criticism. And this
Post by AWILLIS957
if being watched by millions of
Post by AWILLIS957
viewers can be called being alone.
acknowledges the artificiality of the situation.
If my post came over as a narrow-minded criticism of women, then I give up.
I suspect I failed to make my point, and that is that there is too
much diversity in either gender to make anything except a broad
generalization that isn't going to hold true in practice, and how
useful is that? If you want a bunch of articulate, "sensitive" men,
try a group of psychiatrists or social psychologists. If you want a
group of women who, generally, don't talk about their feelings and
don't *want* to talk about their feelings, try a convention of women
engineers or physicists or statistitians. In both cases these are
broad generalizatons, but both cases will probably prove more true in
practice than the pop "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" kind
of logic that the premise you were proferring states (don't take that
personally!).

A generalization that holds even more true across the board than
whether men and women talk differently in gender-segregated groups is
that the higher the mean education/intelligence of the group (gender
segreated or otherwise), the more similar the interactions of any
given group will be. In other words, education abd/or intelligence is
an even more discriminating behavioral factor than gender.

I didn't say, nor did I intend to imply, that your post came over as a
narrow-minded criticism of women. If I were going to be critical
about any point in your post, it would be that "reality TV shows" deal
with reality. They don't.

From a screenwriting perspective, I personally don't find broad
generalizations useful because there is enough diversity in each
gender to allow me to craft a credible male who is nurturing and
supportive of others, or a female who is more comfortable talking
about ice hockey than she is about her own or anyone else's feelings.

I think one of the more interesting factors here is that whether a
movie or a "reality" TV show or a novel or, indeed, a work of
non-fiction, deals with a bunch of "good old boys" who share a six
pack more readily than a personal thought, or a group of women trying
to figure out what makes their "significant others" tick, the writer
*behind* the scene *must* be able to wear that skin convincingly.

Paint with too wide a brush and you'll end up painting a wall, not a
portrait. '-)

Caroline
Who does NOT intend any part of this or her previous post to be a
personal criticism.
Mysti Berry
2004-05-19 22:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
cranky rant deleted
If my post came over as a narrow-minded criticism of women, then I give up.
Your post absolutely did not come across that way to me.

There definitely are measurable differences in the way men and women
communciate among and between the sexes.
Some of the ones I remember from my linguistics days include:

- Women tend to use more "verifiers" (repeating last statement to ensure
it was heard correctly, or tags like "I see"
or "does that make sense"?

- Women tend to interrupt men less often than men interrupt men (I'm not
sure about women-women interruptions).

- Women tend to use consensus seeking language rather than imperatives

these are all statistical things, not absolutes, and terribly
situational. I learned that at least one oft-quoted statistic was
obtained by listening to college kids in cafes and etc., places where
mating behaviors were most likely to be influencing sex-typed differences.
And I don't know of any studies done since post gen-X, I imagine the
differences between the genders is dwindling over time...

Also, I know of no studies that measure men's and women's speech in
different positions...women bosses vs. women employees, etc. etc.
Sociolinguistic studies are subject to a lot of factors, not all of
which we've sorted out yet!

Mysti, ex-linguist
Joe Myers
2004-05-20 07:05:38 UTC
Permalink
"Mysti Berry" <***@oracle.com> wrote

[snips]
Post by Mysti Berry
- Women tend to use more "verifiers" (repeating last statement to ensure
it was heard correctly, or tags like "I see"
or "does that make sense"?
- Women tend to interrupt men less often than men interrupt men (I'm not
sure about women-women interruptions).
- Women tend to use consensus seeking language rather than imperatives
these are all statistical things, not absolutes, and terribly
situational.
The thing I notice most about my relationships with men vs. those with women
is how frequently Boys' Night Out reverts to the 8th Grade.

In social conversation, women explore issues, dynamics, or the complex
mathematics of relationships...or they just spill the gossip!

Guys only say important stuff if they're drunk.

Joe Myers
"Okay. Fuckit. I'm drunk..."
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-20 08:23:46 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2004 07:05:38 GMT, "Joe Myers"
Post by Joe Myers
"Okay. Fuckit. I'm drunk..."
Cheers, Joe...! '-)
Gene Harris
2004-05-20 14:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Myers
The thing I notice most about my relationships with men vs. those with
women is how frequently Boys' Night Out reverts to the 8th Grade.
In my days in the National Guard, we used to say that when we came to our
weekend drills, our IQs dropped twenty to thirty points. We attributed it
to the green uniform, but I suspect that at least ten of those dropped
points was because of the exclusively male company. (This was well before
women began serving in the same outfits as men.)

Of course, looking at some of those photos from Abu Ghraib, I think
stupidity in the military is no longer the exclusive province of the guys.

Gene
M.C.
2004-05-20 15:04:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Harris
Post by Joe Myers
The thing I notice most about my relationships with men vs. those with
women is how frequently Boys' Night Out reverts to the 8th Grade.
In my days in the National Guard, we used to say that when we came to our
weekend drills, our IQs dropped twenty to thirty points. We attributed it
to the green uniform, but I suspect that at least ten of those dropped
points was because of the exclusively male company. (This was well before
women began serving in the same outfits as men.)
Of course, looking at some of those photos from Abu Ghraib, I think
stupidity in the military is no longer the exclusive province of the guys.
Wartime and boredom and homesickness and stress and fear and
testosterone and revenge and adrenaline do things to men and women in
uniform. We train them to kill and choose to look the other way when
they do. Plus the military culture desensitizes rookies, and dehumanizes
the enemy -- always has and always will.

I remember going to a beautiful place in England, Charlecote, near
Stratford (where Shakespeare is supposed to have done a little poaching
or some such thing). Fabulous tudor house and deer park... and hearing
stories about how the American GIs had arrived one night in their jeeps,
and proceeded to massacre all the deer with their machine guns.

The point isn't so much that it was stupid, but that the locals never
forgot or forgave them all those years later...

And this isn't only an American phenomenon. The Canadians were doing the
same and worse in Somalia. VERY ugly treatment of prisoners -- also
photographed.
Mysti Berry
2004-05-20 15:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Joe,

At risk of being thrown out of the sisterhood for spilling the beans, we
also natter endlessly
about diet & exercise & clothes & hair instead of admitting we're pissed
at each other,
we passive-aggressive each other to death (oh, I don't know, where do
YOU want to go?),
etc.

My scariest moment was with a bunch of gals at the old Chippendale's.
Crikey, my friends were badly behaved.

Mysti
Post by Joe Myers
[snips]
Post by Mysti Berry
- Women tend to use more "verifiers" (repeating last statement to ensure
it was heard correctly, or tags like "I see"
or "does that make sense"?
- Women tend to interrupt men less often than men interrupt men (I'm not
sure about women-women interruptions).
- Women tend to use consensus seeking language rather than imperatives
these are all statistical things, not absolutes, and terribly
situational.
The thing I notice most about my relationships with men vs. those with women
is how frequently Boys' Night Out reverts to the 8th Grade.
In social conversation, women explore issues, dynamics, or the complex
mathematics of relationships...or they just spill the gossip!
Guys only say important stuff if they're drunk.
Joe Myers
"Okay. Fuckit. I'm drunk..."
M.C.
2004-05-20 16:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mysti Berry
At risk of being thrown out of the sisterhood for spilling the beans, we
also natter endlessly
about diet & exercise & clothes & hair instead of admitting we're pissed
at each other,
we passive-aggressive each other to death (oh, I don't know, where do
YOU want to go?),
etc.
My scariest moment was with a bunch of gals at the old Chippendale's.
Crikey, my friends were badly behaved.
Details, Mysti. I want details.

I've been thinking of becoming a Chippendale.

No really, I have. I have all the qualifications.

I'm English. I'm a bit old and battered. I'm not very comfortable to sit
on. Stick me against the wall and I stay there.
marybones
2004-05-20 22:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mysti Berry
My scariest moment was with a bunch of gals at the old Chippendale's.
This is completely OT, but I once saw, in the classifieds, an ad
selling Chip and Dale chairs.

Whether a man or woman wrote it, I don't know.
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-20 23:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by marybones
Post by Mysti Berry
My scariest moment was with a bunch of gals at the old Chippendale's.
This is completely OT, but I once saw, in the classifieds, an ad
selling Chip and Dale chairs.
Whether a man or woman wrote it, I don't know.
Maybe Disney was making furniture? '-)
Alan Brooks
2004-05-20 16:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Myers
The thing I notice most about my relationships with men
vs. those with women is how frequently Boys' Night Out
reverts to the 8th Grade.
Maturity is greatly overrated.

But seriously, I can't remember the last time Boys' Night Out achieved
an 8th Grade level.
Post by Joe Myers
In social conversation, women explore issues, dynamics,
or the complex mathematics of relationships...or they
just spill the gossip!
Guys only say important stuff if they're drunk.
Joe, what are we going to do with you? "Important stuff" would involve
professional sports teams, power tools, recreational stupidity,
substance abuse, babes, speed, any sort of complex and/or dangerous
equipment, army surplus parachutes, trucks, cars and the waitresses.

What sort of "important stuff" can't you talk about unless you're drunk?
Maybe you've got some sorta emotional blockage and we should get
together and talk about it. At Hooters.
Post by Joe Myers
Joe Myers
"Okay. Fuckit. I'm drunk..."
In middle English that would've been "Call me Ishmael..."


Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

-- Thereby hangs a tail.
M.C.
2004-05-20 16:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Brooks
What sort of "important stuff" can't you talk about unless you're drunk?
Maybe you've got some sorta emotional blockage and we should get
together and talk about it. At Hooters.
OK, but we have to stop at the topless car wash on the way.
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-20 08:22:18 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 19 May 2004 15:38:23 -0700, Mysti Berry
Post by Mysti Berry
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
cranky rant deleted
Wasn't intended as a "cranky rant." Was intended as a reasonabe look
at the other side of the coin.
Post by Mysti Berry
If my post came over as a narrow-minded criticism of women, then I give up.
Your post absolutely did not come across that way to me.
Didn't come across that way to me either. My respose was intended to
be taken on the light side with a bit of humor that seems to have
escaped a lot of people... Sorry 'bout that.

My point was and is that there is a lot of swampy ground that can
muddy our shoes when we start trying to categorize in one area and
ignore the diversities in that same area.

Do guys talk to women differently than to men? Sure they do. On
*most* subjects. But there are times when "sexual tensions,"
"feminine softness," or "Beer and football" do not come into play.
They are cliches. My guess would be that these "gender attributes"
probably only come into play maybe 35 to 40 percent of the time, if
that. Could it be even less than that, but we notice them more?

How many people here conciously stop and think, "I'm talking to the
opposite sex now," or "I'm talking to someone who is the same sex as I
am this time." Probably not often. Or may I just think very
differently than the rest of the world?

Again, it as NOT my intention to offend but simply to open up the
discussion.

Caroline
AWILLIS957
2004-05-20 09:10:17 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
From: "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
My point was and is that there is a lot of swampy ground that can
muddy our shoes when we start trying to categorize in one area and
ignore the diversities in that same area.
Do guys talk to women differently than to men? Sure they do. On
*most* subjects. But there are times when "sexual tensions,"
"feminine softness," or "Beer and football" do not come into play.
They are cliches. My guess would be that these "gender attributes"
probably only come into play maybe 35 to 40 percent of the time, if
that. Could it be even less than that, but we notice them more?
I'm sure you're right. But I was thinking of ways to vary the voices in
scripts. I've noticed an increase in the past two years of female characters in
authority positions on British television, particularly in hospital and police
series. In one police series both the leading detectives were women (I don't
mean, like Cagney and Lacey; these two were running the unit). This is all to
the good, but has led to more female characters talking like male characters,
in that brusque, businesslike, analytical manner that is a cinch for writers to
dash off, resulting in a driving homogeneity that rings false with me.

The varying of voice from character is a crucial skill, but one that often
eludes writers. I suspect that's because they aren't observing enough. They're
writing scripts that are like other scripts (instead of saying, this is what
the police are like, they're saying, this is what the police are like in other
police shows).

Mysti pointed out something that I've never used in a script but that I knew
instantly was right.

<Women tend to use more "verifiers" (repeating last statement to ensure
<it was heard correctly, or tags like "I see"
<or "does that make sense"?

I realise that all my female friends use something like that last sentence when
talking to me, whereas my male friends don't. My female friends confess a
problem, or articulate a feeling, and then they say something like "am I being
stupid?", "is that mad?", or, indeed, "does that make sense?"

I've long given up the male problem-solving approach to my female friends'
problems, because they never take my advice. In fact, one friend has been
coming to me with recurrences of the same triangular relationshipo problem for
the last five years. I've realised that they don't want solutions or advice,
even when they ask for them, even if they make a goood framework for a
heart-to-heart; what they want is simply to air the matter, turn it over aloud
with a friend, as a way of grappling with it. I'm not like that; I keep all my
relationship stuff to myself, for some reason. It's always a slight defeat when
someone finds something out.

By the way, I'm not saying that women are more full of problems than men. My
friends talk to me about good stuff, too, like auditions, or fancying a certain
bloke. Once again, nothing I say will make any difference, so I listen - I even
do that therapist thing of replaying them back to themselves. By default, I've
gained a reputation as a good listener, even though I'm essentially a man's
man, who would rather talk sport, art, and theory in an ideal world.

Pemch.
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-20 11:55:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by AWILLIS957
I'm sure you're right. But I was thinking of ways to vary the voices in
scripts. I've noticed an increase in the past two years of female characters in
authority positions on British television, particularly in hospital and police
series. In one police series both the leading detectives were women (I don't
mean, like Cagney and Lacey; these two were running the unit). This is all to
the good, but has led to more female characters talking like male characters,
in that brusque, businesslike, analytical manner that is a cinch for writers to
dash off, resulting in a driving homogeneity that rings false with me.
Interesting take... For me, such TV situations have a ring of truth
simply because I've been exposed to more than my share of women (I've
been around a while) who find themselves in authority positions and
have no female role models, so they take on attributes of the only
role models available to them. Consequently, instead of
"reinterpreting" the authority and tailoring it to suit themselves,
they too often become hard, masculine, and barking.

Then there is the area of "cultural modifiers." How has the 20th
century impacted on the British and/or American culture? For example,
after WWII, American women were beaten back into domesticity with a
large government stick! "You cannot keep your well paying
defense-work jobs that you have advanced and excelled in, because some
poor returning GI who has a family to support deserves your job more
than you do." And American women bought into it. Then realized
rather late in the game that they really didn't want to give all that
up. The years of "women's lib" have modified the American perception
of what is feminine and what is not.

How many Hollywood movies can you name, besides "Erin Brokavich," that
present women executives in a positive light? Or ANY light, for that
matter? If you were to do a remake of "Bridge on the River Kwai"
today, what WOMAN would you consider casting in Alec Guinness' role?
Could "Dead Poets' Society" be successfully rendered in a girl's
school?

My real life experience is that when women take on executive roles, we
do tend to set aside our femininity. Why? Well, the first problem is
that too many men interpret "femininity" it as a come on and/or a
challenge. Sorry. Voice of experience here. And secondly, whether
you're dealing with a male or female as their superior in a matter
that involves any sort priority, deadline, or even a "calling on the
carpet" for someone who is under your jurisdiction, ain't no way that
works except to be "authoritarian." And it doesn't matter how much
perfume or how many bows the woman wears, "authoritarian" is *always*
interpreted as "masculine." Unfortunately, "authoritarian" is also
what all too often is the only reliable tool available. Damned if you
do, damned if you don't!
Post by AWILLIS957
The varying of voice from character is a crucial skill, but one that often
eludes writers. I suspect that's because they aren't observing enough. They're
writing scripts that are like other scripts (instead of saying, this is what
the police are like, they're saying, this is what the police are like in other
police shows).
My impression is that you're talking about television shows as opposed
to feature films. My observation is (it's 147 years since I worked
anywhere near a TV camera!) that the compressed time format of
television doesn't leave a lot of room for exploiting less-than-lead
characters. But I will quickly admit that there *are* ensemble TV
shows such as "ER" (and others) that do explore "everyone" for the
many aspects of their life and personality. I'm not saying you're
wrong about the "shorthand" of writing this kind of character. I'm
just not convinced that it's always and wholly lazy writing.
Expedient? Yes. Lazy? The jury is still out.
Post by AWILLIS957
Mysti pointed out something that I've never used in a script but that I knew
instantly was right.
<Women tend to use more "verifiers" (repeating last statement to ensure
<it was heard correctly, or tags like "I see"
<or "does that make sense"?
I realise that all my female friends use something like that last sentence when
talking to me, whereas my male friends don't. My female friends confess a
problem, or articulate a feeling, and then they say something like "am I being
stupid?", "is that mad?", or, indeed, "does that make sense?"
SOME women! My perception and experience is that that is a learned
behavior. For example, I don't think the real life "Aunty Ems"
(Wizard of Oz) of yesteryear did that sort of thing. I also think the
more education a woman has (interacting with her peers along the way),
the more likely this behavior is developed/learned (assuming it's not
learned at home from Mom). It's a very 1960s California "Touchy
Feely" come-visit-me-in-the-ashram kind of thing that has now spread
throughout the whole culture. I've made conscious efforts to give it
up. I've also noticed that when I do it, I'm feeling defensive about
something and looking for approval.

Thinking it over, I think it's also very reflective of the subliminal
questions that women have -- and have passed from one generation to
the next -- regarding their role in the world. Not to mention in
their home, their daily lives, their marriages, their jobs. But I
would call them "validators" rather than verifiers. I think they are
a means of seeking validation for yourself. "Self validation" may be
the ideal, but we all seek approval from outside sources.

Which brings up the "other side of the coin." How have the changes in
women's roles impacted on men's roles? Certainly they are there.
But.... Overall, the driving force in the male half of the species is
still procreation. At the extreme risk of sounding like a militant
feminist (which I absolutely am not!), when the modern couple comes
home at night from their respective executive positions, how many guys
do you think still say, "Do the laundry, then do me!" '-)

Seriously, there have been changes for men to assimilate, but not as
radical as those women have made voluntarily and as a result of
outside pressures.
Post by AWILLIS957
I've long given up the male problem-solving approach to my female friends'
problems, because they never take my advice. In fact, one friend has been
coming to me with recurrences of the same triangular relationshipo problem for
the last five years. I've realised that they don't want solutions or advice,
even when they ask for them, even if they make a goood framework for a
heart-to-heart; what they want is simply to air the matter, turn it over aloud
with a friend, as a way of grappling with it. I'm not like that; I keep all my
relationship stuff to myself, for some reason. It's always a slight defeat when
someone finds something out.
I think the proper psychiatric term is "ventilate." '-)
Post by AWILLIS957
By the way, I'm not saying that women are more full of problems than men. My
friends talk to me about good stuff, too, like auditions, or fancying a certain
bloke. Once again, nothing I say will make any difference, so I listen - I even
do that therapist thing of replaying them back to themselves. By default, I've
gained a reputation as a good listener, even though I'm essentially a man's
man, who would rather talk sport, art, and theory in an ideal world.
Well, I'm probably not a typical female, and therefore my "insights"
may be open to challenge. In the midst of a heated argument, I once
asked my second (ex)husband why the hell he had married me. Without
missing a beat, he very levelly replied, "Because you think like a
man." <sigh> *NO* idea what he meant. I think I just think like
"me."

Caroline
Post by AWILLIS957
Pemch.
Paula
2004-05-20 23:39:18 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2004 11:55:57 GMT, "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
At the extreme risk of sounding like a militant
feminist (which I absolutely am not!) [...]
Why, why, WHY do intelligent women say this? This irritates the hell
out of me.

Paula
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-21 04:47:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paula
On Thu, 20 May 2004 11:55:57 GMT, "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
At the extreme risk of sounding like a militant
feminist (which I absolutely am not!) [...]
Why, why, WHY do intelligent women say this? This irritates the hell
out of me.
Paula
Gee, Paula, ya think there's an outside chance it might have anything
at all to do with how many times I've been accused of being a militant
feminist?

Caroline
Having lived on both sides of the feminist movement, I prefer things
*before.* A woman could be as "liberated" as she chose, but on a
crowded bus guys still gave her their seat.
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-21 05:29:14 UTC
Permalink
As a matter of fact, this brings up an interesting personal
observation.

Some time back, I decided that I was using waaaaaay too many
"verifiers," as Mysti calls them. I've called them "validators" in
this very thread. But when I was looking over my own use of them some
time ago, I came to the conclusion that they were a constant and
ongoing apology for having an opinion.

As a momentary digression here, my years working in psychiatry taught
me that "adaptive behaviors" are often a way of trying to avoid
confrontation or conflict. For example, in the field of mental
illness, there was a time when, throughout the "western" world, the
mentally ill instinctively assumed strange and sometimes cowering
postures because it reduced the amount of public abuse they had to
endure. And I am now questioning just how much of this
"verifier/validator" speech by women is an adaptive mental posture?

To get back to my point, some time ago I made a conscious decision to
try to rid myself of this "verbal blight" by stating things straight
out. Not to change the basic content of what I say, but to stop
loading what I say/write with these obfuscating little phrases
designed to reduce the incoming flak. Took a lot of conscious effort
and rewrites, but I've been working on it.

So now to my point. In my initial response to A. Willis in this
thread, I wrote without the verifier/validators. I meant what I wrote
in just as "lets have some fun with this" way as I would have had I
used all the extra "feminine verbality." But! the only direct
responders to me, Mr. Willis (Ms?) and Mysti, read it as hostile when
there was no hostile intent.

So all of this brings up an interesting conundrum: *If* you're a
woman and do not use the feminine verbal posturing, do you incite
hostile reaction?

Or maybe I just need to work on it more, ya think? '-)

Caroline
AWILLIS957
2004-05-21 07:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
From: "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
Some time back, I decided that I was using waaaaaay too many
"verifiers," as Mysti calls them. I've called them "validators" in
this very thread. But when I was looking over my own use of them some
time ago, I came to the conclusion that they were a constant and
ongoing apology for having an opinion.
At the extreme risk of sounding like a militant
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
feminist (which I absolutely am not!) [...]
I must say that I don't regard all manifestations of these verifiers or
validators as apolgies. In some ways they a sort of conversational politeness.
I'm not sure that the blunt, direct style does anyone any favours.

I was once sent on an assertiveness course (my female boss told me I didn't
need it but that she was sending me along to help liven it up for the others,
which might have been brilliant managerial blarney for all I know). I came to
two conclusions about the techniques: 1. that they worked 2. that I wasn't
going to use them, except against the most horrible people. I felt that to use
all human contacts as win/lose situations was too calculating. So I do still
use the blustery, apologetic phrases that I was taught to avoid. I just think
it's part of being human.
So all of this brings up an interesting conundrum: *If* you're a
woman and do not use the feminine verbal posturing, do you incite
hostile reaction?
I think the difficulty for me in that case - I want to make it clear that I
wasn't offended; in fact I thought I couldn't have expressed myself clearly -
was that I didn't detect the humour. This may be an internet problem more than
a real-life one: without the smiles, or whatever, it's sometimes difficult to
tell whether people are being hostile or simply ribbing you.

I'm tryingb to train myself along opposite lines to you - to be less blunt, and
to throw in more signals of empathy.

If i may make one observation, though; if you are going to be more direct
you've got to be less sensitive. You will ruffle more feathers, and if people
seeem irritated it's probably better to leave them to it rather than to try to
clarify your position.

Pemch.
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-21 08:19:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by AWILLIS957
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
From: "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
Some time back, I decided that I was using waaaaaay too many
"verifiers," as Mysti calls them. I've called them "validators" in
this very thread. But when I was looking over my own use of them some
time ago, I came to the conclusion that they were a constant and
ongoing apology for having an opinion.
At the extreme risk of sounding like a militant
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
feminist (which I absolutely am not!) [...]
Actually, that was meant as tongue-in-cheek. But yes, it can also be
interpreted as a "validator."
Post by AWILLIS957
I think the difficulty for me in that case - I want to make it clear that I
wasn't offended; in fact I thought I couldn't have expressed myself clearly -
was that I didn't detect the humour. This may be an internet problem more than
a real-life one: without the smiles, or whatever, it's sometimes difficult to
tell whether people are being hostile or simply ribbing you.
In lieu of trying to formulate some sort of diacritical method of
indicating vocal inflection and nuance, I find myself wishing for
voice-mail newsgroups.

hmmmm... How would you proof and edit a voice mail?

Never mind! '-)
Post by AWILLIS957
If i may make one observation, though; if you are going to be more direct
you've got to be less sensitive. You will ruffle more feathers, and if people
seeem irritated it's probably better to leave them to it rather than to try to
clarify your position.
Yeah... But that's the really HARD part...! <sigh>

Caroline
Mysti Berry
2004-05-21 19:53:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paula
On Thu, 20 May 2004 11:55:57 GMT, "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
At the extreme risk of sounding like a militant
feminist (which I absolutely am not!) [...]
Why, why, WHY do intelligent women say this? This irritates the hell
out of me.
Paula
Intelligent women don't :)

Seriously, many women feel obliged to disambiguate themselves from the
caricatures drawn of feminists,
militant or casper milquetoastie, by AM radio celebrities among others.
But it seems like the pendulum is swinging back, I've
seen less apologizing for this than in the past ten years.
Ovum
2004-05-21 23:36:37 UTC
Permalink
Seriously, many women feel obliged to disambiguate [whoa!] themselves from the
caricatures drawn of feminists
At one of the ubiquitous marches on Washington a few weeks ago, lots of
marchers, both male and female, wore pink t-shirts that read: "This Is What a
Feminist Looks Like."

Very cool.

Lois

------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
Paula
2004-05-20 23:44:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by AWILLIS957
Once again, nothing I say will make any difference, so I listen - I even
do that therapist thing of replaying them back to themselves. By default, I've
gained a reputation as a good listener, even though I'm essentially a man's
man, who would rather talk sport, art, and theory in an ideal world.
I'm sure what you say DOES make a difference - just the fact that you
bother to say anything at all is good. I wish more men I came in
contact with were good listeners.

And a "man's man" who talks about art ... ! That's a first! Let me
know next time you're in Texas!

Paula
AWILLIS957
2004-05-21 07:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
And a "man's man" who talks about art ... ! That's a first! Let me
know next time you're in Texas!
Yeah, but you should hear me and my friend go. We pop up from the conversation
to check facts in books, and we like to know which movement is what, and so
forth. My female friends have learnt how frustrated I get when they go to see a
play, film, or whatever, and tell me about it without full details of title,
writer, actors etc. This is a fault, I fear.

I haven't read "Men are from Mars", but I wonder if the following type of
conversation comes up in it.

(Before I do this, here's a "verifier/apologifier" [LOL], please let me make
clear that this is an exaggeration, and present company is excepted, obviously
- this being a screenplay board.)

FEMALE FRIEND
(knowing this will interest me)
I went to see a film the other day. It was really good.

ME
Yeah? What film?

FEMALE FRIEND
Oh, er, what was it called now?

ME
Well, what was it about?

FEMALE FRIEND
It was about these people, they were in Thailand, or was it Malaysia? The
scenery --

ME
The Beach?

FEMALE FRIEND
Um.

ME
Leonato di Caprio?

FEMALE FRIEND
No, he wasn't in it. That other one. Really good-looking, dark hair.

ME
Johnny Depp.

FEMALE FRIEND
No, the other one. But, it was really interesting. We went in that new Pizza
place afterwards.

ME
(irritated)
You went to see a film and you don't know what it was called?

FEMALE FRIEND]
I'll look it up. I'll ask Jane tonight.


Me wanting to anally label and categorize; she just wanting to share.
M.C.
2004-05-21 10:28:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by AWILLIS957
ME
(irritated)
You went to see a film and you don't know what it was called?
FEMALE FRIEND]
I'll look it up. I'll ask Jane tonight.
Women's English



Yes = No

No = Yes

Maybe = No

I'm sorry = You'll be sorry.

We need = I want

It's your decision = The correct decision should be obvious by now.

Do what you want = You'll pay for this later.

We need to talk = I need to complain

Sure... go ahead = I don't want you to.

I'm not upset = Of course I'm upset, you moron!

You're... so manly = You need a shave and you sweat a lot.

You're certainly attentive tonight = Is sex all you ever think about?

Be romantic, turn out the lights = I have flabby thighs.

This kitchen is so inconvenient = I want a new house.

I want new curtains = and carpeting, and furniture, and wallpaper.

Hang the picture there = NO, I mean hang it there!

I heard a noise = I noticed you were almost asleep.

Do you love me? = I'm going to ask for something expensive.

How much do you love me? = I did something today you're really not going
to like.

I'll be ready in a minute. = Kick off your shoes and find a good game on
TV.

Is my butt fat? = Tell me I'm beautiful.

You have to learn to communicate. = Just agree with me.

Are you listening to me!? = Too late, you're dead.

Was that the baby? = Why don't you get out of bed and rock him until he
goes to sleep.

I'm not yelling! = Yes I am yelling because I think this is important.

The answer to What's wrong?:

The same old thing = Nothing

Nothing = Everything

Everything = My PMS is acting up

Nothing, really = It's just that you're such an asshole



Men's English



I'm hungry. = I'm hungry.

I'm sleepy. = I'm sleepy.

I'm tired. = I'm tired.

Do you want to go to a movie? = I'd eventually like to have sex with you.

Can I take you out to dinner? = I'd eventually like to have sex with you.

Can I call you sometime? = I'd eventually like to have sex with you.

May I have this dance? = I'd eventually like to have sex with you.

Nice dress! = Nice tits!

You look tense, let me give you a massage. = I want to fondle you.

What's wrong? = I don't see why you are making such a big deal out of
this.

What's wrong? = What meaningless self-inflicted psychological trauma are
you going through now?

What's wrong? = I guess sex tonight is out of the question.

I'm bored. = Do you want to have sex?

I love you. = Let's have sex now.

I love you, too. = Okay, I said it...we'd better have sex now!

Yes, I like the way you cut your hair. = I liked it better before.

Yes, I like the way you cut your hair. = $50 and it doesn't look that
much different!

Let's talk. = I am trying to impress you by showing that I am a deep
person and maybe then you'd like to have sex with me.

Will you marry me? = I want to make it illegal for you to have sex with
other guys.

(while shopping) I like that one better. = Pick any freakin' dress and
let's go home!

I don't think that blouse and that skirt go well together. = I am gay.
Mysti Berry
2004-05-21 19:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.C.
...
Women's English
Yes = No
Remeber you said that if you ever have a daughter and she ever has to
tell someone no.

I understand that you were joking in your post, but leading with this
very dangerous bit of malarky muddles the joke.

Mysti
M.C.
2004-05-21 20:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mysti Berry
Post by M.C.
Yes = No
Remeber you said that if you ever have a daughter and she ever has to
tell someone no.
I understand that you were joking in your post, but leading with this
very dangerous bit of malarky muddles the joke.
Well I understand what you're saying and why you're saying it, but
surely you would have greater cause for concern if it were the other way
around:

No = Yes


....surely?
marybones
2004-05-22 02:40:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.C.
Women's English
Yes = No
No = Yes
Thin ice, baby.
Post by M.C.
Maybe = No
I'm sorry = You'll be sorry.
Men's
Post by M.C.
What's wrong? = What meaningless self-inflicted psychological trauma are
you going through now?
Um...

I was going to point out that all this was a joke until...
Post by M.C.
Will you marry me? = I want to make it illegal for you to have sex with
other guys.
.. because this one is true. Makes me wonder about the rest.

I still think you need to reconsider your list...
M.C.
2004-05-22 03:06:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by marybones
Post by M.C.
Yes = No
No = Yes
Thin ice, baby.
I know.
Post by marybones
Post by M.C.
Maybe = No
I'm sorry = You'll be sorry.
Men's
Post by M.C.
What's wrong? = What meaningless self-inflicted psychological trauma are
you going through now?
Um...
I was going to point out that all this was a joke until...
And not *my* joke -- just something someone sent me...
Post by marybones
Post by M.C.
Will you marry me? = I want to make it illegal for you to have sex with
other guys.
.. because this one is true. Makes me wonder about the rest.
I still think you need to reconsider your list...
Not *MINE* -- sheesh!

No wonder there's a battle of the sexes...
marybones
2004-05-22 20:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.C.
No wonder there's a battle of the sexes...
Someone once said: "Neither side will win the battle of the sexes.
Too much fraternizing with the enemy."

I suspect Groucho.
M.C.
2004-05-22 21:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by marybones
Post by M.C.
No wonder there's a battle of the sexes...
Someone once said: "Neither side will win the battle of the sexes.
Too much fraternizing with the enemy."
I suspect Groucho.
Seems reasonable.
Ovum
2004-05-21 00:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by AWILLIS957
This is all to
the good, but has led to more female characters talking like male characters,
in that brusque, businesslike, analytical manner
There was a similar problem with the script for "There's Something About Mary."
I've never seen the movie, but in the script Cameron Diaz' character was
supposed to be a doctor with a nice-girl-next-door personality. And yet her
dialog was totally thugged out! It was like she had Tourrettes or something.
Post by AWILLIS957
My female friends confess a
problem, or articulate a feeling, and then they say something like "am I being
stupid?", "is that mad?", or, indeed, "does that make sense?"
A lot of women do that Southern thing: they end their sentences, even
declarative statements, on an up-note, as if they were asking a question:

"I went to the movies? To see 'Van Helsing'? And there were, like, all these
neo-goths there? So I kind of left and watched 'Mean Girls' instead?"
Post by AWILLIS957
I've realised that they don't want solutions or advice,
even when they ask for them, even if they make a goood framework for a
heart-to-heart; what they want is simply to air the matter, turn it over aloud
with a friend, as a way of grappling with it.
Here's the thing. If both genders could get this, The World Would Be a Better
Place: *in general,* talking is to women as sex is to men.

Men enjoy sex. Sex is recreational. It's therapeutic. It's fun. It's not a
means to an end, it *is* the end. Having sex makes a man feel better. And men
like it when women respond enthusiastically to sex, and really get into it.
Even better if she sometimes initiates sex. And comes up with cool and exciting
variations.

Women enjoy talking. Talking is recreational. It's therapeutic. It's fun. It's
not a means to an end, it *is* the end. Talking things out makes a woman feel
better. And women like it when men respond enthusiastically to conversation,
and really get into it. Even better if the man sometimes initiates a
heart-to-heart. And comes up with cool and exciting topics to discuss.

See? So when some woman is still going strong after 18 stanzas of her "Here's
What I Said to Ruth Today" opera, think to yourself: "This is like sex for
her."

Lois



------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
AWILLIS957
2004-05-21 07:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
Here's the thing. If both genders could get this, The World Would Be a Better
Place: *in general,* talking is to women as sex is to men.
Crikey. I didn't know I was having so much sex.
Men enjoy sex
Well, and women do - OK, maybe not so often.
Women enjoy talking.
In theory, the ideal would be a combination of the two, then. Being theatrical,
I do like a bit of the old scenario sex, I must say.

I'm not sure I totally buy your dichotomy, however. (I know it's
tongue-in-cheek).

I would say this. If you're a not-very-good-looking guy but a good listener,
you can get to sleep with very attractive women. I've used that deliberately
(because the manipulative seduction approach is just not my thing - I listen to
people because I listen to people, not because I want something; I never flirt,
as such).

Pemch.
AWILLIS957
2004-05-21 07:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
I need urgently to add a word to my own post here:

"I've used that deliberately"

should have read

"I've *NOT* used that deliberately."

(Shrieks at the magnitude of his own howler.)
Ovum
2004-05-21 23:53:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by AWILLIS957
Post by Ovum
Men enjoy sex
Well, and women do - OK, maybe not so often.
Research shows that 40 percent of women are non-orgasmic.

More women would probably be orgasmic if they didn't have media-inspired body
image issues, weren't afraid of contraceptive failure, and had partners who
knew what they were doing.
Post by AWILLIS957
I'm not sure I totally buy your dichotomy, however. (I know it's
tongue-in-cheek).
Actually, I'm totally serious. I've been reading the sexual-issues and
gender-relations literature for years. If you scan between the lines, the
"talking = sex" theory is right there.
Post by AWILLIS957
I would say this. If you're a not-very-good-looking guy but a good listener,
you can get to sleep with very attractive women.
The other day a radio talk show host pointed out how the things guys did to
attract their wives (actually listening to them, etc.) are the exact same
things they need to keep doing with their wives after they marry them.

And just so nobody thinks I'm complaining: my Significant Other is a fabulous
listener!

... but country line dancing, not so much.

:-)

Lois

------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
AF
2004-05-23 18:38:03 UTC
Permalink
"Ovum" wrote...
Post by Ovum
Post by AWILLIS957
Post by Ovum
Men enjoy sex
Well, and women do - OK, maybe not so often.
Research shows that 40 percent of women are non-orgasmic.
More women would probably be orgasmic if they didn't have media-inspired body
image issues, weren't afraid of contraceptive failure, and had partners who
knew what they were doing.
Read With A the Voice of a Nerdy Scientist Trying to be Cool
Research shows that women's sexual drive is linked to the testosterone
levels in their bodies. So if a gentleman (that is, a horny hound-dog)
wants a woman who'd be sexually responsive (a good lay), the ones who seem
to have higher testosterone levels may be the mates that would meet the
criteria (that is, butch types may be the way to go)

(Those of us who are attracted to pretty feminine girls will just have to
work harder...)
Post by Ovum
Post by AWILLIS957
I'm not sure I totally buy your dichotomy, however. (I know it's
tongue-in-cheek).
Actually, I'm totally serious. I've been reading the sexual-issues and
gender-relations literature for years. If you scan between the lines, the
"talking = sex" theory is right there.
In my experience, women do just fine with the talking. My approach was to
once in a while to apply my brutish male jaw to repeating half a sentence of
whatever they were yakking about, and that did just fine.
Post by Ovum
Post by AWILLIS957
I would say this. If you're a not-very-good-looking guy but a good listener,
you can get to sleep with very attractive women.
Yup....repeating sentences here and there -- VERY effective
Post by Ovum
The other day a radio talk show host pointed out how the things guys did to
attract their wives (actually listening to them, etc.) are the exact same
things they need to keep doing with their wives after they marry them.
And just so nobody thinks I'm complaining: my Significant Other is a fabulous
listener!
... but country line dancing, not so much.
:-)
Lois
------------------------------------------------
"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-23 19:34:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 23 May 2004 18:38:03 GMT, "AF"
Post by AF
Yup....repeating sentences here and there -- VERY effective
Or for some women (like me), DAMNED annoying...!

Caroline
Who never dated Little Sir Echos a second time.
AF
2004-05-23 19:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
On Sun, 23 May 2004 18:38:03 GMT, "AF"
Post by AF
Yup....repeating sentences here and there -- VERY effective
Or for some women (like me), DAMNED annoying...!
Caroline
Who never dated Little Sir Echos a second time.
Yes. It annoys me just to imagine it. I was being facetious. I NEVER did
that
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-23 20:21:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 23 May 2004 19:50:28 GMT, "AF"
Post by AF
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
Caroline
Who never dated Little Sir Echos a second time.
Yes. It annoys me just to imagine it. I was being facetious. I NEVER did
that
I was once forced to give up friendship with a couple because of their
"conversational habits." They would always sit one on one side of me,
the other on the other, and they would BOTH talk at the same time.
About DIFFERENT things! And repeat words and parts of my sentences
when I was takling. A half hour with them was like two weeks of
uninterrupted Chinese water torture!

Caroline
Silent attentiveness is the best compliment conversationalists can pay
each other.
Ovum
2004-05-23 22:00:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by AF
"Ovum" wrote...
Post by Ovum
More women would probably be orgasmic if they didn't have media-inspired
body
Post by Ovum
image issues, weren't afraid of contraceptive failure, and had partners
who
Post by Ovum
knew what they were doing.
On second thought, that statement is not really fair to men. Women should take
responsibility for having a good time. More of us could stand to learn how our
bodies work and ask for what we like.
Post by AF
Research shows that women's sexual drive is linked to the testosterone
levels in their bodies.
This is true.
Post by AF
(Those of us who are attracted to pretty feminine girls will just have to
work harder...)
Pretty women can have higher-than-average testoserone levels. It's not like
testoserone automatically makes women look like Mick Foley. :-)

Lois

------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
Alan Brooks
2004-05-21 16:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ovum
Here's the thing. If both genders could get this, The World
Would Be a Better Place: *in general,* talking is to women
as sex is to men.
Men enjoy sex. Sex is recreational. It's therapeutic. It's fun.
It's not a means to an end, it *is* the end. Having sex makes
a man feel better. And men like it when women respond
enthusiastically to sex, and really get into it. Even better if
she sometimes initiates sex. And comes up with cool and exciting
variations.
Women enjoy talking. Talking is recreational. It's therapeutic.
It's fun. It's not a means to an end, it *is* the end. Talking
things out makes a woman feel better. And women like it when men
respond enthusiastically to conversation, and really get into it.
Even better if the man sometimes initiates a heart-to-heart. And
comes up with cool and exciting topics to discuss.
See? So when some woman is still going strong after 18 stanzas of
"This is like sex for her."
This was part of your Masters Thesis, wasn't it?

"Conversation as Contraceptive: A Comparative Study of Orgasms of the
Clitoris, Vagina and Larynx"

Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

-- An in-depth study.
Ovum
2004-05-21 23:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Brooks
This was part of your Masters Thesis, wasn't it?
"Conversation as Contraceptive: A Comparative Study of Orgasms of the
Clitoris, Vagina and Larynx"
Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood
-- An in-depth study.
8-D

Lois

------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
Mysti Berry
2004-05-21 19:44:05 UTC
Permalink
What did you think of LaPlante's dialog for first season or four of
Prime Suspect?
I thought the dialog showed a unique individual changing her voice
depending on the situation...but I'm a fool for
Helen Mirrin anyway :)

Cracker also had a good lady cop...and here in US, Law & Order: CI, the
little gal detective's voice is
telegraphic, but still individual...

Mysti
Post by AWILLIS957
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
From: "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
My point was and is that there is a lot of swampy ground that can
muddy our shoes when we start trying to categorize in one area and
ignore the diversities in that same area.
Do guys talk to women differently than to men? Sure they do. On
*most* subjects. But there are times when "sexual tensions,"
"feminine softness," or "Beer and football" do not come into play.
They are cliches. My guess would be that these "gender attributes"
probably only come into play maybe 35 to 40 percent of the time, if
that. Could it be even less than that, but we notice them more?
I'm sure you're right. But I was thinking of ways to vary the voices in
scripts. I've noticed an increase in the past two years of female characters in
authority positions on British television, particularly in hospital and police
series. In one police series both the leading detectives were women (I don't
mean, like Cagney and Lacey; these two were running the unit). This is all to
the good, but has led to more female characters talking like male characters,
in that brusque, businesslike, analytical manner that is a cinch for writers to
dash off, resulting in a driving homogeneity that rings false with me.
The varying of voice from character is a crucial skill, but one that often
eludes writers. I suspect that's because they aren't observing enough. They're
writing scripts that are like other scripts (instead of saying, this is what
the police are like, they're saying, this is what the police are like in other
police shows).
Mysti pointed out something that I've never used in a script but that I knew
instantly was right.
<Women tend to use more "verifiers" (repeating last statement to ensure
<it was heard correctly, or tags like "I see"
<or "does that make sense"?
I realise that all my female friends use something like that last sentence when
talking to me, whereas my male friends don't. My female friends confess a
problem, or articulate a feeling, and then they say something like "am I being
stupid?", "is that mad?", or, indeed, "does that make sense?"
I've long given up the male problem-solving approach to my female friends'
problems, because they never take my advice. In fact, one friend has been
coming to me with recurrences of the same triangular relationshipo problem for
the last five years. I've realised that they don't want solutions or advice,
even when they ask for them, even if they make a goood framework for a
heart-to-heart; what they want is simply to air the matter, turn it over aloud
with a friend, as a way of grappling with it. I'm not like that; I keep all my
relationship stuff to myself, for some reason. It's always a slight defeat when
someone finds something out.
By the way, I'm not saying that women are more full of problems than men. My
friends talk to me about good stuff, too, like auditions, or fancying a certain
bloke. Once again, nothing I say will make any difference, so I listen - I even
do that therapist thing of replaying them back to themselves. By default, I've
gained a reputation as a good listener, even though I'm essentially a man's
man, who would rather talk sport, art, and theory in an ideal world.
Pemch.
M.C.
2004-05-21 20:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mysti Berry
Cracker also had a good lady cop...and here in US, Law & Order: CI, the
little gal detective's voice is
telegraphic, but still individual...
And if a *man* had made a reference to a "little gal detective" I wonder
what you might have had to say about *that*!
Ovum
2004-05-18 22:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by AWILLIS957
Do the sexes talk differently
when alone together?
Google the work of Deborah Tannen.

Lois

------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
nmstevens
2004-05-19 04:41:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ovum
Post by AWILLIS957
Do the sexes talk differently
when alone together?
Google the work of Deborah Tannen.
Lois
I don't know about the sexes talking differently when they're alone
together -- but I do know that, almost all the time, when I hear a man
talking on the phone, I can tell whether or not he's talking to a man
or a woman on the other end of the phone -- pretty much irrespective
of what he's talking about -- but I can't do that nearly as often when
I'm listening to a woman on the phone (teenaged girls excluded).

NMS
Ovum
2004-05-20 02:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by nmstevens
almost all the time, when I hear a man
talking on the phone, I can tell whether or not he's talking to a man
or a woman on the other end of the phone
Really? How can you tell?

Lois

------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
AWILLIS957
2004-05-20 08:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
Date: 20/05/04 3:28 AM GMT Daylight Time
Post by nmstevens
almost all the time, when I hear a man
talking on the phone, I can tell whether or not he's talking to a man
or a woman on the other end of the phone
Really? How can you tell?
Lois
Reading that comment reminded me that when I was younger I used to put on a
deeper, slower voice when talking to women on the phone. I think I imagined it
would make me sexier, more masterful, give me mystique. The women were probably
thinking, "what a tosser!"
AWILLIS957
2004-05-21 07:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
Post by AWILLIS957
Do the sexes talk differently
when alone together?
Google the work of Deborah Tannen.
I did Google her. Very interesting. She confirms what Mysti was saying. And (in
reply to something someone else said) she has actually made a study of the
socio-linguistic behaviour of women bosses.
Buzz Elkins
2004-05-19 01:12:29 UTC
Permalink
My experience is that, yes, women in small groups tend to be supportive. I
try to find something in common when I converse rather than pick out the
sore spots that we're gonna disagree about. If forced to, I will disagree.
Is it nature or nuture? I don't know. Does it have to do with age? I
don't know. I'm not sure it's different with men. I've never been in a
conversation with all men, but then I wouldn't because if I'm there it's not
all men.

Now, I've found that when women want to be confrontational they will
definitely be. No shortages of opinions. Someone here a while back gave
some good advice, I think, (can't remember who) when writing. Write it all
out and then change the genders of the people talking and see what happens.
More nuance maybe.

JOE
I just hate it when I can't figure out what she means by "I'll call you."

TODD
Me too, sometimes I she would talk more.
Alan Brooks
2004-05-19 01:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzz Elkins
Write it all
out and then change the genders of the people talking and see what happens.
More nuance maybe.
JOE
I just hate it when I can't figure out what she means by "I'll call you."
TODD
Me too, sometimes I wish she would talk more.
Heh heh heh heh... that probably qualifies as one of the
least-frequently spoken combinations of words in the English Language.

Right up there with "That's the banjo player's Porsche."

Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

-- "Hey Honey, let's skip the Yankee's
game so we can sit here and hash
over all the interactions we had
with other people today, okay?"
Buzz Elkins
2004-05-19 02:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzz Elkins
Post by Buzz Elkins
Write it all
out and then change the genders of the people talking and see what
happens.
Post by Buzz Elkins
More nuance maybe.
JOE
I just hate it when I can't figure out what she means by "I'll call
you."
Post by Buzz Elkins
TODD
Me too, sometimes I wish she would talk more.
And aren't you sweet putting the "wish" in my sentence.
Post by Buzz Elkins
Heh heh heh heh... that probably qualifies as one of the
least-frequently spoken combinations of words in the English Language.
It's true though. I've lived long enough to know it.
Post by Buzz Elkins
Right up there with "That's the banjo player's Porsche."
One of my favorite lines by Johnny Carson. I miss him so.

Some of the best conversations I've ever had have been with male best
friends. You've worked through all the sexual tension stuff (or so you
think) and they can give the best advice (or so you think). I love my male
friends. Lots of time in the van with guitar-players and drummers, etc.
You know what! They really wonder why when they call she's not home.

Suzy
M.C.
2004-05-19 02:23:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzz Elkins
Some of the best conversations I've ever had have been with male best
friends. You've worked through all the sexual tension stuff (or so you
think) and they can give the best advice (or so you think). I love my male
friends. Lots of time in the van with guitar-players and drummers, etc.
You know what! They really wonder why when they call she's not home.
I never spent time in a van with male guitarists and drummers so maybe
I've missed out on something even better, but the best conversations
I've had lately have all been with women.
marybones
2004-05-19 15:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.C.
I never spent time in a van with male guitarists and drummers so maybe
I've missed out on something even better, but the best conversations
I've had lately have all been with women.
How nice for you!

I don't talk differently based on gender. I talk based on trust.

Women do tend to seek consensus, but if I encounter a woman I don't
trust, the consesnsus is just pretend. Keeping it cool... as if,
well, I was talking to a man I don't trust.

That being said, there's a lot of fun to be had in having fun in the
verbal sparring department. Any woman who plays dumb, thinking a man
likes that, is missing out on a wonderful opportunity.
M.C.
2004-05-19 15:58:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by marybones
Post by M.C.
I never spent time in a van with male guitarists and drummers so maybe
I've missed out on something even better, but the best conversations
I've had lately have all been with women.
How nice for you!
A further clarification is in order: I could, and maybe should have said
the best conversations I've had lately have all been with one woman.

But that said, I do tend to enjoy the company of and the viewpoint of
women more than men -- never was into that male-bonding, into the ewoods
to bang a drum stuff, plus I have zero interest in sports and I don't
make a habit of propping up bars...

Gee, does all this make me kind of, well... *gay* do you think? (Not
that there's anything wrong with that).
Post by marybones
I don't talk differently based on gender. I talk based on trust.
A good policy.
Post by marybones
Women do tend to seek consensus, but if I encounter a woman I don't
trust, the consesnsus is just pretend. Keeping it cool... as if,
well, I was talking to a man I don't trust.
That being said, there's a lot of fun to be had in having fun in the
verbal sparring department. Any woman who plays dumb, thinking a man
likes that, is missing out on a wonderful opportunity.
Oh, I'll second that.
Ovum
2004-05-20 02:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.C.
A further clarification is in order: I could, and maybe should have said
the best conversations I've had lately have all been with one woman.
Go, MC!

:-)

Lois

------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
M.C.
2004-05-20 02:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ovum
Post by M.C.
A further clarification is in order: I could, and maybe should have said
the best conversations I've had lately have all been with one woman.
Go, MC!
Funny... that's what *she* said, just before she hung up the phone.
marybones
2004-05-20 22:33:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ovum
Post by M.C.
A further clarification is in order: I could, and maybe should have said
the best conversations I've had lately have all been with one woman.
Go, MC!
:-)
Lois
I second that! And if you run out of words... things could get more interesting.
M.C.
2004-05-20 22:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by marybones
Post by Ovum
Post by M.C.
A further clarification is in order: I could, and maybe should have said
the best conversations I've had lately have all been with one woman.
Go, MC!
:-)
Lois
I second that! And if you run out of words... things could get more interesting.
Did I mention that Trixie's planning to quit Jello-wrestling soon? I
lent her my credit cards yesterday and she said she'd be back some time
next week. God, I love that girl.
Alan Brooks
2004-05-19 02:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzz Elkins
Some of the best conversations I've ever had have been with male best
friends. You've worked through all the sexual tension stuff (or so you
think) and they can give the best advice (or so you think). I love my male
friends. Lots of time in the van with guitar-players and drummers, etc.
You know what! They really wonder why when they call she's not home.
Oh she's at home. It's just her night to babysit the parrot again,
which is why she can't see me. Happens all the time.

Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

-- Guess I got that WWF box to myself again.
Buzz Elkins
2004-05-19 03:02:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Brooks
Post by Buzz Elkins
Some of the best conversations I've ever had have been with male best
friends. You've worked through all the sexual tension stuff (or so
you
Post by Buzz Elkins
think) and they can give the best advice (or so you think). I love my
male
Post by Buzz Elkins
friends. Lots of time in the van with guitar-players and drummers,
etc.
Post by Buzz Elkins
You know what! They really wonder why when they call she's not home.
Oh she's at home. It's just her night to babysit the parrot again,
which is why she can't see me. Happens all the time.
Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood
-- Guess I got that WWF box to myself again.
I LOVE you.
Alan Brooks
2004-05-19 03:28:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzz Elkins
I LOVE you.
I'll just fold that one up and carry it in my hip pocket tomorrow.

Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

-- !
Gene Harris
2004-05-19 18:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzz Elkins
Someone here a while back
gave some good advice, I think, (can't remember who) when writing.
Write it all out and then change the genders of the people talking and
see what happens. More nuance maybe.
Sort of reminds me of Melvin Udall (Jack Nicholson) in As Good as it Gets,
who, when asked how he, as a man, could write all those women characters so
well in his romance novels, replies, "I think of a man and take away reason
and accountability."

Not that I agree with him, o'course ...

Gene
ap
2004-05-20 00:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Harris
Post by Buzz Elkins
Someone here a while back
gave some good advice, I think, (can't remember who) when writing.
Write it all out and then change the genders of the people talking and
see what happens. More nuance maybe.
Sort of reminds me of Melvin Udall (Jack Nicholson) in As Good as it Gets,
who, when asked how he, as a man, could write all those women characters so
well in his romance novels, replies, "I think of a man and take away reason
and accountability."
Not that I agree with him, o'course ...
Gene
s
Ovum
2004-05-20 02:25:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzz Elkins
I've never been in a
conversation with all men
Seriously? I'm often the only woman in the conversation. It happened a lot when
I was single, and it happens a lot now even though I'm married.

Women tend to talk about people and men tend to talk about activities. Who was
it that said, "Great people talk about ideas, small people talk about others,
and boors talk about themselves"?

Anyway, I had this great experience a couple months ago at a lunch with these
four women and my boss. One woman was a philanthropist. Another was a
university professor. The third was the rich woman's daughter, a Harvard grad
who owned a construction company. The fourth was the Harvard grad's former
college roommate.

The conversation was all about ideas. Science and history and biology and
literature and education and all this other stuff! I felt like a Rwandan
refugee tasting ice cream for the first time.

Lois

------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
Asbestos Jeff
2004-05-19 01:57:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by AWILLIS957
Do women talk differently to men?
They sure as hell talk faster when they're only talking to themselves.
Jump around like tweaking frogs, too.
Post by AWILLIS957
One good thing about Reality TV is that it offers the opportunity to eavesdrop on members of the opposite sex talking to each other alone
Yes.
Post by AWILLIS957
Do you take things like that into account while writing your dialogue?
No. You're way fucking ahead of me.
AF
2004-05-19 23:22:28 UTC
Permalink
"AWILLIS957" wrote...
Post by AWILLIS957
Do women talk differently to men?
Apparently, Jane Austen never wrote scenes of men talking alone together
because she didn't feel well-enough informed. Do the sexes talk differently
when alone together?
YES! I remember my eyes being opened as a teenager to the secret world of
women when overheard teenage girls chatting amongst themselves -- these
goody-two-shoes (public image in male company) emitted the most raw, vulgar
words I'd ever heard from human mouths, laced with XXX stuff (including
graphic descriptions of their sexual exploits, complete with anatomical
descriptions) . Their sophisticated verbal cruelty towards each other, and
infighting was especially new to me. Any conflicts that guys had with each
other were usually settled with a few loud & doltish curse words or, at
worst, a fist fight. Then, it was cool between them again. Girls, I
learned, harbor long-festering but carefully concealed resentments, and
carefully awaited the time to exact their revenge with a subtlety that would
pass over most guys' heads.

I was also struck the Machiavellian nature of the schemes of girls -- they
had an analysis of the power structure among guys that I wasn't in the least
bit aware of. They even mentioned me, and said I was a leader ("Since
when?," I asked myself). Us guys, I learned, were really a much simpler
breed.
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-20 08:51:55 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 19 May 2004 23:22:28 GMT, "AF"
Post by AF
YES! I remember my eyes being opened as a teenager to the secret world of
women when overheard teenage girls chatting amongst themselves -- these
goody-two-shoes (public image in male company) emitted the most raw, vulgar
words I'd ever heard from human mouths, laced with XXX stuff (including
graphic descriptions of their sexual exploits, complete with anatomical
descriptions) . Their sophisticated verbal cruelty towards each other, and
infighting was especially new to me. Any conflicts that guys had with each
other were usually settled with a few loud & doltish curse words or, at
worst, a fist fight. Then, it was cool between them again. Girls, I
learned, harbor long-festering but carefully concealed resentments, and
carefully awaited the time to exact their revenge with a subtlety that would
pass over most guys' heads.
I was also struck the Machiavellian nature of the schemes of girls -- they
had an analysis of the power structure among guys that I wasn't in the least
bit aware of. They even mentioned me, and said I was a leader ("Since
when?," I asked myself). Us guys, I learned, were really a much simpler
breed.
Interesting, Adam. I don't doubt you at all, but it is a side of
"women" that I haven't experienced. Or maybe I've just chosen to
steer clear? On the other hand, all of my life most of my "best
friends" have been male. Well, I guess I could drop the "best" there
and just say most of my friends are male. When trying to think why,
my first response was "because I'm not comfortable with most women."

Reading over what you've said, questions about evolution come to mind
Have these "behaviors" served the species well in the dark recesses of
our past? In ancient times when genders were kept segregated much as
they are in many Moslem countries today, the palace intrugues among
women were horrendous! Poisoning each other's sons to jockey their
own into a better position to inherit the throne. All kinds of
intrigues! Yet the men -- both "intact" and "modified" (as in
eumuchs" -- would paint the chief wife as a benevolent and kind woman.
How could she be in that environment? Machiavelli could have learned
a thing or two!

In the distant shadows of our tribal past, it seems logical that men
had to learn to cooperate and not carry grudges because they had to
depend on each other when facing large game, as well as in battle.
Not exactly the time you want the guy next to you thinking, "Oh yeah!
That son-of-a-bitch drank MY mead last night, and I think he's messing
around with MY wife!" Women were left to winnow the wheat and jockey
for the side of the winnowing circle that had the most shade, meaning
they had more time for "nuance."

Doncha theenk? '-)

Caroline
AF
2004-05-20 15:06:46 UTC
Permalink
"Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)" wrote...
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
Interesting, Adam. I don't doubt you at all,
I'm sure you don't. NOT!

(it was my humble little attempt at a satirical treatise)
Buzz Elkins
2004-05-21 03:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by AWILLIS957
Do women talk differently to men?
Just gonna say one more thing about this. I've carried my Twin Reverb
enough to know. We don't want to be perceived as weak, but we're not weak!
And carrying a hundred-pound amp is not the way to prove it.

I hate it when female newscasters with enough makeup and blonde hair for a
whole magazine spit words out in a masculine way in order to be taken
seriously. What's wrong with a feminine way? It's like being feminine is a
handicap. I think it's hard to be either sex now. Do men open doors for
women? Why are we considered weak if we're feminine?

It's like being black and can't have an accent or raise chickens if you want
to. We do that in Mississippi and we're considered so pathetic. What's
wrong with that? Can't we be different but equal?

It's confusing. I sort of liked it when Merle Haggard was interviewed on
the Fox Network about the Dixie Chicks and was sort of taking up for them
and said, "Women have been traditionally against war." Doesn't someone need
to be? Now we have women MPs sexually abusing prisoners. I think some of
the traditional traits of feminity are very good (as I lift my Twin Reverb
into the van). Everyone should be as strong as they can be, and sometimes
being strong is loving the most, being gentle, or throwing a fit.

It gives us great latitude for our characters.

Suzy (strong and weak all at the same time - just like men - and no one
brought this on - I just wanted to talk)
RonB
2004-05-21 06:23:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzz Elkins
I hate it when female newscasters with enough makeup and blonde hair
for a whole magazine spit words out in a masculine way in order to be
taken seriously.
I'm not particularly "sexist," but this irritates the hell out of me,
too. Especially women sports announcers. Of course I'm not real crazy
about men newscasters or men sports announcers, either. Woman just sound
weirder when they try to mimic phony men.

We need more "Walter Cronkites" -- male and female. News announcers
using their own voices and styles. (But they're probably not allowed to
do so any more.)
--
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
AWILLIS957
2004-05-21 07:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Do women talk differently to men?
I hate it when female newscasters with enough makeup and blonde hair for a
whole magazine spit words out in a masculine way in order to be taken
seriously. What's wrong with a feminine way? It's like being feminine is a
handicap.
It's all got complex, but maybe that's interesting. There's a younger
generation of women that takes the victories of feminism for granted, or don't
even know about them. The philosophy has often boiled down to just to doing
whatever men do. In Britain this has led, among other things, to more young
women drinking pints and fighting in pubs, more women convicted of violent
crime (though they're still way behind, thank God), more women boasting of
serial shagging.

In Iraq, these few women soldiers involved in the abuse have bought so far into
the male way of doing things that they've abandoned some of the intrinsic
virtues of their sex. The true feminists never did that. Yes, it *is*
confusing. But it's inevitable - one of the prices that has to be paid for
progress.
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-21 09:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by AWILLIS957
In Iraq, these few women soldiers involved in the abuse have bought so far into
the male way of doing things that they've abandoned some of the intrinsic
virtues of their sex. The true feminists never did that. Yes, it *is*
confusing. But it's inevitable - one of the prices that has to be paid for
progress.
Good point, but is it progress? And oh dear, I feel a rant coming on!

1400 BC or thereabouts. XVIII Dynasty, anyway. Hatsheptsut was KING
of Egypt. There was no Egyptian title for a female pharaoh, so she
was king. And a damned good one who ruled long. She even tied on the
ceremonial beard for state occasions.

440(?) BC (give or take a few decades) Artemesia, the Dorian ruler
and vasal of Xerxes, commanded her own five trireme fleet in the sea
battles against Athens, and is the earliest known woman admiral in
history. Xerxes is said to have loved her, but he married someone
else. The price of "liberation?"

Aspasia 440 BC Mistress to Pericles, and said by some to have helped
him rule Athens, not to mention have had a hand in the writing of his
speeches. Described as a courtesan (heterae), Pericles truly loved
her, left his wife for her, and would have married her save for his
own law he passed barring Athenian citizens from marrying foreigners.
A cultural and intellectual force in her own time.

100 AD - Cleopatra. Hey, even if she didn't save Ptolomaic Egypt from
the hands of Rome, she made a damned good try of it and sure carved
her name deeply into history books!

Well, I could go on and on with this... Joan d'Arc, Catherine the
Great, Elizabeth I, Marie Curie...

My point is that prior to "women's lib," women could be as liberated
as they chose to be. It was a personal decision that every women had
it in her power to make if she was willing to pay the cost. But I
seriously question the 20th century "official liberation" of women.
In 1967, when I decided to forego a very successful career as chief
occupational therapist at a prestigeous SF bay area neuropsyciatric
institute to become a full time, stay-at-home mother, the professional
staff was so upset with my decision they boycotted my going away
party. I will say the hospital offered me an extremely generous bonus
package if I would just stay, but I truly wanted to experience
motherhood first hand and to the fullest.

My case may have been a bit extreme, but it was not atypical. There
are a few encouraging signs that society's total devaluation of the
role of stay-at-home mom is softening. I have militantly objected to
the poppycock about "quality time" with one's children in lieu of
being there full time. "Quality time" is being there when your kids
need you, NOT by appointment!

So I seriously question whether we are pursuing "progress" or mayhem?
I have a difficult time drawing a mental picture of Private (or
whatever her rank is) England as a nurturing caring mother after
seeing her with a naked Iraqi prisoner on a leash, or pointing and
laughing at the genitals of Iraqi "detainees." Nope. This AIN'T
progress...!

I guess it's also in the eye of the beholder.

Caroline
Ovum
2004-05-21 23:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzz Elkins
I hate it when female newscasters with enough makeup and blonde hair for a
whole magazine spit words out in a masculine way
What I want to know is: where do male and female newscasters pick up that weird
way of talking and moving their heads?

It's very bizarre. They talk in an odd, sing-songy way. And punch up certain
words. All the while turning their heads from side to side and up and down. It
is way too strange! Nobody in real life talks like that.

Lois

------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
M.C.
2004-05-21 23:58:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ovum
What I want to know is: where do male and female newscasters pick up that weird
way of talking and moving their heads?
It's very bizarre. They talk in an odd, sing-songy way. And punch up certain
words. All the while turning their heads from side to side and up and down.
It is way too strange! Nobody in real life talks like that.
That's because the rest of us don't read everything we say off a
TelePrompter.

QED
Buzz Elkins
2004-05-22 00:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.C.
Post by Ovum
What I want to know is: where do male and female newscasters pick up
that
Post by M.C.
Post by Ovum
weird
way of talking and moving their heads?
It's very bizarre. They talk in an odd, sing-songy way. And punch up certain
words. All the while turning their heads from side to side and up and down.
It is way too strange! Nobody in real life talks like that.
That's because the rest of us don't read everything we say off a
TelePrompter.
Well, I started this, didn't I?, and now I have to admit there are many good
newscasters, although I don't trust any of them the way I used. to. I like
Katie Couric. I feel like she's one of us. I think she remains feminine
and still asks tough questions. I like Aaron Brown (have no idea where his
political leanings are). I like his delivery. I like Tim Russert. I don't
like Rush Limbaugh (duh!) or Michael Moore (I know he's not a newscaster but
a very public political figure right now). It's not like I don't buy into a
lot of what Moore says or don't think it needs to be said (I will see his
film when it comes out and I have read that he does have a distributor), but
I think he not only brings light to things needing to be addressed but he is
so off-putting to the middle American that he may be doing harm to the
liberal cause. Okay, rip me to shreds for that one. I like George Will.
He's way more conservative than I am but I think he's fair and I think
America needs both sides. I don't like Ann Coulter. She's mean. We don't
need mean. Michael Moore is mean. Rip me to shreds. I can take it. :)
M.C.
2004-05-22 00:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzz Elkins
I don't like Ann Coulter. She's mean. We don't
need mean. Michael Moore is mean. Rip me to shreds. I can take it. :)
That stampeding sound you hear is all the guys in mws rushing to stand
between you and anyone who would harm a hair on your mullet.
Buzz Elkins
2004-05-22 01:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by M.C.
Post by Buzz Elkins
I don't like Ann Coulter. She's mean. We don't
need mean. Michael Moore is mean. Rip me to shreds. I can take it.
:)
Post by M.C.
That stampeding sound you hear is all the guys in mws rushing to stand
between you and anyone who would harm a hair on your mullet.
Awww. That's sweet and I was searching the internet today and saw a picture
of Scarlett Johannson (she's the coolest actress right now in my opinion)
and last April she had a mullet!!!! Shorter on the top than mine.

It was really scary to me (and I'm old) when someone near my age was elected
president. Omigosh where are the parents taking care of us? Now we must
muster up the strength to lead and support our leaders. I will vote for
Kerry (although he has failed to capture me totally). Where are the
charismatic democrats???? The one we had got a blowjob in the Oval Office,
but we were at peace and our economy was thriving. I *do* know that 9/11
has something to do with it all. Now the Republicans are floundering.
Let's start a new party! The rural party. All of y'all in the cities are
out of luck. You must change. We must all plow and sweat and stay out of
everyone else's business!

Now some of y'all might remember when I said the most true words in all
mankind. "Once you say something it's no longer true." These are words I
live by. They are words the sixties gave me. It's not as simple as you
might think. It's just that there is always another angle. It's really
hard to state something and stick by it forever no matter what. It's not
fickle, it's honest.

Except that "Casablanca" is a good film.

Suzy (rock n roll!)
n***@virtual.com
2004-05-22 01:52:59 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 May 2004 20:29:11 -0500, "Buzz Elkins"
Post by Buzz Elkins
It was really scary to me (and I'm old) when someone near my age was elected
president. Omigosh where are the parents taking care of us? Now we must
muster up the strength to lead and support our leaders. I will vote for
Kerry (although he has failed to capture me totally). Where are the
charismatic democrats???? The one we had got a blowjob in the Oval Office,
but we were at peace and our economy was thriving.
That certainly is the key element when it comes to thriving. Oh yes,
the peace and economy stuff, too.
Post by Buzz Elkins
has something to do with it all. Now the Republicans are floundering.
Let's start a new party! The rural party. All of y'all in the cities are
out of luck. You must change. We must all plow and sweat and stay out of
everyone else's business!
I've got nothing against plowing and sweating, but it's hard to do and
stay out of someone else's business... :)
Post by Buzz Elkins
It's really
hard to state something and stick by it forever no matter what.
Really?

You cannot fold a piece of paper in half more than seven times. (by
hand.)

(While you try this, think of folding a piece of paper the size of a
football field.)
Post by Buzz Elkins
Suzy (rock n roll!)
For sure!

Doug

"Life is like a river. If you ain't gettin' your
feet wet, you ain't kickin' hard enough."
Buzz Elkins
2004-05-22 02:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ovum
Post by Buzz Elkins
It's really
hard to state something and stick by it forever no matter what.
Really?
You cannot fold a piece of paper in half more than seven times. (by
hand.)
(While you try this, think of folding a piece of paper the size of a
football field.)
Well, that's brilliant! But it won't be straight. It will have
infolds/wayfolds.
Post by Ovum
Post by Buzz Elkins
Suzy (rock n roll!)
For sure!
Absolutely!
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-22 05:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@virtual.com
You cannot fold a piece of paper in half more than seven times. (by
hand.)
(While you try this, think of folding a piece of paper the size of a
football field.)
Screw the football-field size, I'm looking for onion skin!

Caroline
You owe me a half a ream of bond.
n***@virtual.com
2004-05-22 22:07:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 22 May 2004 05:08:36 GMT, "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
Post by n***@virtual.com
You cannot fold a piece of paper in half more than seven times. (by
hand.)
(While you try this, think of folding a piece of paper the size of a
football field.)
Screw the football-field size, I'm looking for onion skin!
Caroline
You owe me a half a ream of bond.
Ha ha! Funny, Caroline. But I think you'll find that onion skin
paper won't help you out very much.

Doug

I *might* owe you half a ream of onion skin.

"Life is like a river. If you ain't gettin' your
feet wet, you ain't kickin' hard enough."
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-23 04:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@virtual.com
On Sat, 22 May 2004 05:08:36 GMT, "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
Post by n***@virtual.com
You cannot fold a piece of paper in half more than seven times. (by
hand.)
(While you try this, think of folding a piece of paper the size of a
football field.)
Screw the football-field size, I'm looking for onion skin!
Caroline
You owe me a half a ream of bond.
Ha ha! Funny, Caroline. But I think you'll find that onion skin
paper won't help you out very much.
Doug
I *might* owe you half a ream of onion skin.
Ha ha yourself, Dougie Boy! I just did EIGHT folds with a Kleenex!
First try! So what's my prize? I wanna gum ball machine filled with
licorice bubble gum. Or a Porsche.

Caroline
Send my prize by UPS, please. The post office puts dings in things.
n***@virtual.com
2004-05-23 19:02:52 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 23 May 2004 04:33:54 GMT, "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
Ha ha yourself, Dougie Boy! I just did EIGHT folds with a Kleenex!
First try! So what's my prize? I wanna gum ball machine filled with
licorice bubble gum. Or a Porsche.
Yeah... But that eighth fold isn't *really* a clean fold, now is it,
Caroline. It's lumpy. It's not a pretty thing at all.

Sorry, but I'll have to nix sending you that gum ball machine filled
with Porsches for the time being.

Your claim will be re-adjudicated when the official Panel of
Stationery and Other Paper Products Folding Committee returns from
their current duties in Milan, Italy.

Cordially,

Douglas of Newman




"Life is like a river. If you ain't gettin' your
feet wet, you ain't kickin' hard enough."
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-24 11:46:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@virtual.com
On Sun, 23 May 2004 04:33:54 GMT, "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
Ha ha yourself, Dougie Boy! I just did EIGHT folds with a Kleenex!
First try! So what's my prize? I wanna gum ball machine filled with
licorice bubble gum. Or a Porsche.
Yeah... But that eighth fold isn't *really* a clean fold, now is it,
Caroline. It's lumpy. It's not a pretty thing at all.
Sorry, but I'll have to nix sending you that gum ball machine filled
with Porsches for the time being.
Your claim will be re-adjudicated when the official Panel of
Stationery and Other Paper Products Folding Committee returns from
their current duties in Milan, Italy.
Cordially,
Douglas of Newman
Ha! I *knew* there'd be a catch to it! You want knife creases, Sir
Doug? Knife creases you shall have!

Just a minute while I look for my steam iron.

Caroline
n***@virtual.com
2004-05-24 21:57:59 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 24 May 2004 11:46:44 GMT, "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
Ha! I *knew* there'd be a catch to it! You want knife creases, Sir
Doug? Knife creases you shall have!
Just a minute while I look for my steam iron.
Caroline
I'm so sorry, Caroline. We've moved on to "Stuffing Scores of Pigeons
into Pillowcases and Seeing if they can Fly".

It's a bit tedious (the stuffing) but boy, those bags of birds is a
beautiful thing to watch!

Doug (of Newman)

P.S. The "Folding of Paper in Half Not More Than Seven Times" thing
will be returning as scheduled on May 23, 2005.

"Life is like a river. If you ain't gettin' your
feet wet, you ain't kickin' hard enough."
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-24 23:29:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@virtual.com
On Mon, 24 May 2004 11:46:44 GMT, "Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)"
Post by Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
Ha! I *knew* there'd be a catch to it! You want knife creases, Sir
Doug? Knife creases you shall have!
Just a minute while I look for my steam iron.
Caroline
I'm so sorry, Caroline. We've moved on to "Stuffing Scores of Pigeons
into Pillowcases and Seeing if they can Fly".
It's a bit tedious (the stuffing) but boy, those bags of birds is a
beautiful thing to watch!
Doug (of Newman)
P.S. The "Folding of Paper in Half Not More Than Seven Times" thing
will be returning as scheduled on May 23, 2005.
"Life is like a river. If you ain't gettin' your
feet wet, you ain't kickin' hard enough."
TRANSLATION: My cat ate all of the licorice flavor gumballs so the
contest has been cancelled.

To do this in front of God and the whole wide world... How *could*
you! <sob>

Gene Harris
2004-05-22 11:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Buzz Elkins
Well, I started this, didn't I?, and now I have to admit there are
many good newscasters, although I don't trust any of them the way I
used. to. I like Katie Couric. I feel like she's one of us. I think
she remains feminine and still asks tough questions.
I understand what you mean, Suzy, but let me tell you a quick Katie Couric
story.

Recently one of my projects at my job was to produce a video that
encourages communities in Virginia to participate in the upcoming (2007)
400th anniversary commemoration of the settling of Jamestown. The
Jamestown 2007 folks asked Katie Couric to do a short on-camera statement
in support of the project, since she's from Virginia.

After going back and forth on it with her "people" for several months, we
finally got it on her schedule. She was to record the short statement on
the "Today Show" set after one of her broadcasts. The statement was on
teleprompter, and she just had to read it. It was about a minute long.
The Today Show people would send us the tape after she recorded it.

Well, she recorded the statement, and they sent me the tape. I put
it into a tape deck and looked at it. It was unedited, of course, and
included all the stuff she said before and after she read the statement.
Well, she did a take, and she flubbed a word or two. So at the end, she
says that she made a flub, but she asks someone off camera, "What's this
for again?" Someone off camera mumbles something. She replies, "Oh, well,
then, it's not for air, it's good enough." One take -- with a goof.
That's all.

So my clients and I had to settle for putting her statement in our video
with her goof. Now, that might not seem like much of a deal, but I've
worked on projects before where celebrities have done freebies like this,
and every one of them was willing to do their bit more than once, until
they got it right. But not her, because it wasn't going to be broadcast
and seen by millions, merely hundreds. One take is all you get, folks,
because you're just not worth more than a couple of minutes of my time.

So, despite how she appears on the air, I no longer consider her "one of
us."

Gene
Ovum
2004-05-23 13:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Harris
Recently one of my projects at my job was to produce a video that
encourages communities in Virginia to participate in the upcoming (2007)
400th anniversary commemoration of the settling of Jamestown.
You did that? I saw that! Very nice. The Governor did a great job in his
segments.

Re: Katie Couric's blooper: it annoys me when celebs read their lines for
Public Service Announcements off the teleprompter and you can see their eyes
moving back and forth.

These are people who've memorized reams of dialog! They can't memorize 60 words
for a 30-second PSA?

Lois

------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
AWILLIS957
2004-05-23 13:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Sometimes I admire you Americans. It seems beyond us in Britain to prepare
anything in advance.

So uncomfortable are we in that respect that we've given the railway system a
five-year deadline to get the trains running on time, and we plan to introduce
an identity-card system by 2012. In both cases I doubt we'll manage even those
targets.

As for London's bid to host the Olympics, we'd be wise not to laugh at the
Greeks. (Roofless stadia in London wouldn't be such a good idea.)
Gene Harris
2004-05-24 10:51:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by AWILLIS957
Sometimes I admire you Americans. It seems beyond us in Britain to
prepare anything in advance.
Well, the 2007 Jamestown thing is going to be a big deal, the Queen is
coming, they're going to be trying to get the Pres, whoever it will be in
2007, to speak, lots of hoopla, etc. Plus they want communities all over
Virginia and the country, really, to plan their own activities to
commemorate the occasion. After all, Jamestown was the first permanent
English settlement in America.

So it's going to be a pretty elaborate affair, and these things take time
to plan.

Gene
Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)
2004-05-23 16:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ovum
These are people who've memorized reams of dialog! They can't memorize 60 words
for a 30-second PSA?
Depends on the actor. TV actors rarely (if ever) memorize reams of
dialogue. And these are non-paying gigs: Public Service
Announcements.

Caroline
Gene Harris
2004-05-24 10:45:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ovum
Post by Gene Harris
Recently one of my projects at my job was to produce a video that
encourages communities in Virginia to participate in the upcoming
(2007) 400th anniversary commemoration of the settling of Jamestown.
You did that? I saw that! Very nice.
Gee, thanks!
Post by Ovum
The Governor did a great job in his segments.
Yeah, well, the Governor was willing to do more than one take! He worked
with us for probably a half an hour for his two minute-bit. Even so, he's
not a pro, of course, and we still had to do a little finessing on his best
take, covering a couple of stumbles with b-roll so we could edit in a good
sound piece from another take, etc. But he gave it his best shot.
Post by Ovum
Re: Katie Couric's blooper: it annoys me when celebs read their lines
for Public Service Announcements off the teleprompter and you can see
their eyes moving back and forth.
These are people who've memorized reams of dialog! They can't memorize
60 words for a 30-second PSA?
Well, Katie Couric probably never has to memorize anything, but in any
case, celebs are doing these PSAs for free, so they want to spend the
minimum amount of time doing them. The time it takes to memorize lines is
usually more time than they're willing to commit.

Gene
Joe Myers
2004-05-22 00:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ovum
What I want to know is: where do male and female newscasters pick up that weird
way of talking and moving their heads?
Des Moines, Iowa.

Frank Magid & Assciates.

As the only (probably) regular contributor to this forum who has actually
lived in Iowa (if you call that living), I hereby declare that I shall not
be surprised in the least, nor shocked in any way if I opened up the morning
LA Times and the banner headline was: "Aliens from Outter Space Land! Take
Iowans Back to their Native Planet!!!"

But I digress.

In 1957, Frank Magid was a Teaching Assistant at one of those little Iowa
colleges you can't remember but you've heard of. Parsons, maybe? Coe
College? One of those.

He was a psych major with a minor in statistics. And he started consulting
local television stations as to how to craft thier evening and prime time
newscasts. Frank Magid invented "Action News. Frank Magid invented
"Tele-Chopper 7." Frank Magid invented happy talk. Frank Magid knows
exactly the ratio of male/female, Hispanic/White Boy, Old Guy/Technology
Weather... or "Pap Test, Not Beaver Shot: A 17-part Special Report from
Anchor Bunny Laura Hillary" sweeps month pseudo-news stunts?

Do you like those?

Thank Frank Magid.
Every local television station's first expenditure in market research is a
check written to Frank Magid & Associates.

"If it bleeds, it leads," is a Frank Magid concept.

A radio station I once worked for was affiliated with the local TV news
"leader." The "Most Trusted Woman in Wichita" had one talent in the world:
she could read a teleprompter. She was a prototype of the William Hurt
character in "Broadcast News."

For several years, she won every accolade and reward in local news
organizations, all of whom were zealots to the gospel according to Frank
Magid.

(I've been out of those circles for a while; maybe things have changed.
.... Nah.)
Post by Ovum
It's very bizarre. They talk in an odd, sing-songy way. And punch up certain
words. All the while turning their heads from side to side and up and down. It
is way too strange! Nobody in real life talks like that.
There is a language of media. When is the last time the phrase, "...in your
grocer's dairy case," popped up in everyday conversation?

I've given up on local news. I watched it in the Midwest during tornado
season; my ex- was a tornado survivor and freaking when the barometer
dropped. But Frank Magid has turned every local news anchor bunny and
anchor bod into a Stepford bot.

Joe Myers
"I'm right about the Iowa thing, btw."
Ovum
2004-05-22 10:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Myers
I hereby declare that I shall not
be surprised in the least, nor shocked in any way if I opened up the morning
LA Times and the banner headline was: "Aliens from Outter Space Land! Take
Iowans Back to their Native Planet!!!"
"Is this heaven?"

"No, it's Iowa."

(Look Alan, I quoted movie dialog!)
Post by Joe Myers
But Frank Magid has turned every local news anchor bunny and
anchor bod into a Stepford bot.
What's even worse? Now newscasters *in other countries* do it too! Very weird
to hear anchorpersons do that bizarre vocal modulation in Italian or Chinese!

Lois

------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
Alan Brooks
2004-05-22 12:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ovum
"Is this heaven?"
"No, it's Iowa."
(Look Alan, I quoted movie dialog!)
But only because there are men here.


Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

-- You're matronizing us.
Ovum
2004-05-23 13:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Brooks
-- You're matronizing us.
Wow! You're on a roll!

:-)

Lois


------------------------------------------------

"The grand essentials of life are something to do, something to love, and
something to hope for." -- Allan K. Chalmers
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