A tiny question about the punctuation of dialogue.

[ap]

1] When David Trottier, in his book about screenwriting, talks about
the dash, he types it like this: "--". Now, I'm aware that on the
internet, and where you have a limited font available, the recognised
sign for a dash is two hyphens; but does he mean that you should type
a dash like that even when your word processor is capable of producing
an em dash? Is that the convention?

2] In David Trottier's book aboot screenwriting, there's an example of
dialogue on page 68 that shows dashes being used at the start of lines
of dialogue. Is that usual? He doesn't quite cover that style in his
notes on setting out dialogue, as far as can see.

This is the example:

NATALIE
Right -- I mean, I mean under the circumstances it was good. I don't
mean good good, I mean well . . . .

SAM
I really didn't have any other --

NATALIE

-- Exactly. And if we had --

SAM

-- We certainly would've -- or wouldn't've . . . .

NATALIE

Absolutely.


So, what I am asking about is those dashes at the beginning of
dialogue lines. In the dialogue punctuation notes on page 144,
Trottier uses this style, which is slightly different:

VIVI
I came here to --

COQUETTE
I don't want to know why you came here . . .

The second method is familiar to me from playscripts. (This is my
first attempt at a screenplay.) I don't see the point of the matching
dash in the top example (surely the first dash suffices to indicate an
interruption); but if that's the way it should be done, then fair
enough. But is it?

Also I'm surprised at the four-point ellipsis. To me, in my experience
away from screenplays, a four-point ellipsis would be used when
something known is omitted, that reaches the end of a sentence. But in
dialogue, since we can rarely be sure where the character's phrase or
sentence would have ended, surely a three-point ellipsis would do. Or
does ellipsis work differently in screenplays?

*

I'd be interested in your views. (Other than, "this is too trivial to
be bothered with", which I'm sure some of you think.) I'm a big fan of
Pinter, who believed in precise notation of pauses, interruptions,
ellipses, and so on. I also know from the theatre that you don't want
actors thinking they should pause where they shouldn't.

Cheers.

Pemch.

[M.C.]

Post by ap
1] When David Trottier, in his book about screenwriting, talks about
the dash, he types it like this: "--". Now, I'm aware that on the
internet, and where you have a limited font available, the recognised
sign for a dash is two hyphens; but does he mean that you should type
a dash like that even when your word processor is capable of producing
an em dash? Is that the convention?

The overriding convention is, don't do anything you can't do on a manual
typewriter, so underlining is OK, bold is OK, but italics and em-dashes
are not OK.

Post by ap
2] In David Trottier's book aboot screenwriting, there's an example of
dialogue on page 68 that shows dashes being used at the start of lines
of dialogue. Is that usual? He doesn't quite cover that style in his
notes on setting out dialogue, as far as can see.
NATALIE
Right -- I mean, I mean under the circumstances it was good. I don't
mean good good, I mean well . . . .
SAM
I really didn't have any other --
NATALIE
-- Exactly. And if we had --
SAM
-- We certainly would've -- or wouldn't've . . . .
NATALIE
Absolutely.
So, what I am asking about is those dashes at the beginning of
dialogue lines. In the dialogue punctuation notes on page 144,
VIVI
I came here to --
COQUETTE
I don't want to know why you came here . . .
The second method is familiar to me from playscripts. (This is my
first attempt at a screenplay.) I don't see the point of the matching
dash in the top example (surely the first dash suffices to indicate an
interruption); but if that's the way it should be done, then fair
enough. But is it?
Also I'm surprised at the four-point ellipsis. To me, in my experience
away from screenplays, a four-point ellipsis would be used when
something known is omitted, that reaches the end of a sentence. But in
dialogue, since we can rarely be sure where the character's phrase or
sentence would have ended, surely a three-point ellipsis would do. Or
does ellipsis work differently in screenplays?

You're getting down to a level that goes beyond pickiness to picayune!

Really, no one cares about *this* stuff, but as far as I know, an
ellipsis is considered by typographers to be a single character. It is
*not* therefore three periods with spaces in between.

So, you could certainly make a case for an ellipsis followed by a
period. And since most people make a "fake" ellipsis with three periods,
if it,s an ellipsis at the end of a sentence it would look like a
four-point ellipsis.

But honestly, who gives a rat's ass?

Do what feels right to you.

[Michael Dines]

Post by M.C.
Really, no one cares about *this* stuff, but as far as I know, an
ellipsis is considered by typographers to be a single character. It is
*not* therefore three periods with spaces in between.

a rat's ass pedant writes:

No, an ellipsis in typography is three dots with the same space between
them as between the words on that line. So, if the line is justified
with variable spaces, there will be equivalent width variable spaces
between the dots (or 'full points' as we call them in Englandland
printing). If the line is ranged left or right, there will be fixed
width spaces between the points.

Apart from dialogue, in printing an ellipsis usually shows an elision
so, if the middle of a sentence is missing you'll get three points, if a
sentence or more is missing you'll get a full point and the end of the
sentence, then the ellipsis - so four points.

Three points close together is a three-dot leader used, with spaces
between them, to lead the eye across a large gap, like between an index
item and its page number. There are also two-dot and one-dot leaders.

And it does matter - even if your script's going to be read by someone
who thinks the infinitive is where the Starship Enterprise boldly goes.

[M.C.]

In article

Post by Michael Dines

Post by M.C.
Really, no one cares about *this* stuff, but as far as I know, an
ellipsis is considered by typographers to be a single character. It is
*not* therefore three periods with spaces in between.

No, an ellipsis in typography is three dots with the same space between
them as between the words on that line. So, if the line is justified
with variable spaces, there will be equivalent width variable spaces
between the dots (or 'full points' as we call them in Englandland
printing). If the line is ranged left or right, there will be fixed
width spaces between the points.
Apart from dialogue, in printing an ellipsis usually shows an elision
so, if the middle of a sentence is missing you'll get three points, if a
sentence or more is missing you'll get a full point and the end of the
sentence, then the ellipsis - so four points.
Three points close together is a three-dot leader used, with spaces
between them, to lead the eye across a large gap, like between an index
item and its page number. There are also two-dot and one-dot leaders.
And it does matter - even if your script's going to be read by someone
who thinks the infinitive is where the Starship Enterprise boldly goes.

Glad we cleared that up...

[Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)]

On Wed, 05 May 2004 22:17:36 GMT,

Post by Michael Dines
And it does matter - even if your script's going to be read by someone
who thinks the infinitive is where the Starship Enterprise boldly goes.

Good one! '-)

[ActiveVerb]

Don't think anyone is going to care one way or the other.

<<> 1] When David Trottier, in his book about screenwriting, talks about

Post by ap
the dash, he types it like this: "--". Now, I'm aware that on the
internet, and where you have a limited font available, the recognised
sign for a dash is two hyphens; but does he mean that you should type
a dash like that even when your word processor is capable of producing
an em dash? Is that the convention?<

[Matthew Montchalin]

ActiveVerb wrote:
|Don't think anyone is going to care one way or the other.
|
|<<> 1] When David Trottier, in his book about screenwriting, talks about
|> the dash, he types it like this: "--". Now, I'm aware that on the
|> internet, and where you have a limited font available, the recognised
|> sign for a dash is two hyphens; but does he mean that you should type
|> a dash like that even when your word processor is capable of producing
|> an em dash? Is that the convention?<

I think it was with the publication of Eleanor Roosevelt's diaries that
the long horizontal stroke first achieved some kind of respectability,
and it was this respectability (or notoriety) that brought the long
stroke into direct competition with the short hyphen.

As one who grew up with a 1928 Remington typewriter (with an 18 inch
carriage or platen), I'll remind you that clumsy typing can and
occasionally does raise the underscore key up to the point where it
will leave its mark right next to the hyphen or dash, merging it
to produce an unusually long stroke.

And now that we are in the year 2004, we ought to recognize that
there are hundreds of 12 point Courier fonts at 300 dpi, and a
hyphen in one font is almost identical to a long horizontal stroke
in another, but for the pixel definitions, and the horizontal
motions associated with the character, and compounded by the
distance of the average horizontal motion of the cursor as the
laserprinter travels across the page. Any good wordprocessor
program will allow you to take advantage of these things, and
modify them on the fly (as a matter of de rigueur) before returning
them to their default values.

[Joe Myers]

"ap" <***@aol.com> wrote

[snips]

...Also I'm surprised at the four-point ellipsis....

And here's where you started straining at the tiniest of gnats.

Here's the convention:

People expect scripts to look like they've been typed on one of Brooks'
Underwoods.

So a Dash is indicated the way they used to do it: with two hyphens.

Generally, a dash before or after a piece of dialogue signals that the
speaker has interruppted or been interrupted by another. The elipisis tends
to convey that a speaker's sentence tends to trail off or end mid-sentence.

Some people think a four-dot elipses signals the trail-off, or vice versa, I
dunno.

There's no universal standard. Especially with stage scripts. Mamet, for
example, punctuates the exact opposite, i.e., ellipses overlap and dashes
signal a pause. What's he know?

Nobody, ever threw away a "script," for improper punc-tuation...

Joe Myers
"I'm Sparticus?"

[Alan Brooks]

Post by Joe Myers
People expect scripts to look like they've been typed on one of Brooks'
Underwoods.

That's right. And typing services are $1.75 an hour. No discounts.

Post by Joe Myers
Nobody, ever threw away a "script," for improper punc-tuation...
Joe Myers
"I'm Sparticus?"

Ohhhhhhh noooooooo... Joe's gone to the Dark Side.

Wilford Brimley
Katharine Hepburn
&tc.
Spartacus

Or maybe he's being ironical, and I'm to sloshed to see it?


Alan Brooks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A Schmuck with an Underwood

-- Oh, how the flighty have fallen.

[cm]

Post by ap
1] When David Trottier, in his book about screenwriting, talks about
the dash, he types it like this: "--". Now, I'm aware that on the
internet, and where you have a limited font available, the recognised
sign for a dash is two hyphens; but does he mean that you should type
a dash like that even when your word processor is capable of producing
an em dash? Is that the convention?

There are no specific conventions, other than using Courier Font 12
point and following basic formatting styles.

The rest is up to you to use as you see fit.

C.

[Stephen Greenfield]

Post by ap
1] When David Trottier, in his book about screenwriting, talks about
the dash, he types it like this: "--". Now, I'm aware that on the
internet, and where you have a limited font available, the recognised
sign for a dash is two hyphens; but does he mean that you should type
a dash like that even when your word processor is capable of producing
an em dash? Is that the convention?

OK, I'm in David's camp on this one. I prefer double dashes to separated
ideas and moderate the flow. They should never be an "em" dash. However, I
also use three dots to indicate trailing off. Often at the end of dialog,
sometimes in the middle, but I never use it where the three dots "touch"
both sides of the sentence. Sometime I'll use three dots at the START of a
sentence, purely for pacing:

=======

EXT. MAIN GATE -- NIGHT

The grounds are both beautiful and haunting in their nocturnal emptiness.
Slowly, the scene brightens and...

...Foreboding darkness becomes inviting warmth, as the morning sunlight
filters across the campus.

=======

Below is a snippet of some dialog with both dash-dash and dot-dot-dot.
Taken out of context, this scene may seem a bit adolescent, but it's part of
a larger work that's more in the Dead Poet's Society vein:

========

CYNTHIA
I want to show you something...

Then she does something quite surprising. She places Howie's
hand under her t-shirt. Howie is stunned.

CYNTHIA
Well, what do you feel?

Howie's voice is a bit weak and squeaky.

HOWIE
Your heartbeat?

CYNTHIA
No, silly. I'm not wearing a bra...
My mom tried to make me wear one,
but I refused -- it's too confining.
They're my breasts -- I should be
free to do what I want with them,
right?

HOWIE
(nervously)
Hey, it's America...

CYNTHIA
This place is too restricting.
Sometimes it's so suffocating I feel
like taking all my clothes off...

=====
As others have said, it's really a matter of your own style. But recapping,
I'd say stay away from typographical "em dashes" and true ellipses.

Best Regards,

Stephen Greenfield
Write Brothers, Inc.

http://www.screenplay.com
http://www.dramatica.com
http://www.wordmenu.com
http://www.storyview.com
http://www.write-bros.com

[unknown]

Post by Stephen Greenfield

Post by ap
1] When David Trottier, in his book about screenwriting, talks about
the dash, he types it like this: "--". Now, I'm aware that on the
internet, and where you have a limited font available, the recognised
sign for a dash is two hyphens; but does he mean that you should type
a dash like that even when your word processor is capable of producing
an em dash? Is that the convention?

OK, I'm in David's camp on this one. I prefer double dashes to separated
ideas and moderate the flow. They should never be an "em" dash. However, I
also use three dots to indicate trailing off. Often at the end of dialog,
sometimes in the middle, but I never use it where the three dots "touch"
both sides of the sentence. Sometime I'll use three dots at the START of a
=======
EXT. MAIN GATE -- NIGHT
The grounds are both beautiful and haunting in their nocturnal emptiness.
Slowly, the scene brightens and...
...Foreboding darkness becomes inviting warmth, as the morning sunlight
filters across the campus.
=======
Below is a snippet of some dialog with both dash-dash and dot-dot-dot.
Taken out of context, this scene may seem a bit adolescent, but it's part of
========
CYNTHIA
I want to show you something...

Nice!

Everyone has read THE SHINING, right? Not the script, the book. There's
some effective punctuation for example.

[Steven J. Weller]

Post by ap
1] When David Trottier, in his book about screenwriting, talks about
the dash, he types it like this: "--". Now, I'm aware that on the
internet, and where you have a limited font available, the recognised
sign for a dash is two hyphens; but does he mean that you should type
a dash like that even when your word processor is capable of producing
an em dash? Is that the convention?

Scripts are supposed to look typwritten rather than word processed;
there's no emdash on a typewritter, so you use the to hyphens.

Post by ap
2] In David Trottier's book aboot screenwriting, there's an example of
dialogue on page 68 that shows dashes being used at the start of lines
of dialogue. Is that usual? He doesn't quite cover that style in his
notes on setting out dialogue, as far as can see.
NATALIE
Right -- I mean, I mean under the circumstances it was good. I don't
mean good good, I mean well . . . .
SAM
I really didn't have any other --
NATALIE
-- Exactly. And if we had --
SAM
-- We certainly would've -- or wouldn't've . . . .
NATALIE
Absolutely.
So, what I am asking about is those dashes at the beginning of
dialogue lines. In the dialogue punctuation notes on page 144,

thypically, you use a double hyphen to end a sentence when the speaker
is being interrupted. Starting the interruption with a double hyphen
gives the impression that the speakers are steppig on each others'
lines, finishing each others' thoughts, etc.

The four-dot ellipses has always bugged me, too; it seems like the
ellipses is a perfectly suitable way to end a sentence when the speaker
is trailing off, so there's no need for that extra period to cap it off.
The point of the device is that the sentence ISN'T capped off, it just
trails away... right?

[Otto Mation (Caroline Freisen)]

Post by ap
1] When David Trottier, in his book about screenwriting, talks about
the dash, he types it like this: "--". Now, I'm aware that on the
internet, and where you have a limited font available, the recognised
sign for a dash is two hyphens; but does he mean that you should type
a dash like that even when your word processor is capable of producing
an em dash? Is that the convention?

The convention of the double dash is not restricted to screenwriting,
or indeed David Trottier, but is a long standing convention in *any*
type-written or word processed document, whether it be a term paper, a
book ms, or a screenplay. "--" always equals a full dash.

Post by ap
2] In David Trottier's book aboot screenwriting, there's an example of
dialogue on page 68 that shows dashes being used at the start of lines
of dialogue. Is that usual? He doesn't quite cover that style in his
notes on setting out dialogue, as far as can see.
NATALIE
Right -- I mean, I mean under the circumstances it was good. I don't
mean good good, I mean well . . . .
SAM
I really didn't have any other --
NATALIE
-- Exactly. And if we had --
SAM
-- We certainly would've -- or wouldn't've . . . .
NATALIE
Absolutely.
So, what I am asking about is those dashes at the beginning of
dialogue lines. In the dialogue punctuation notes on page 144,
VIVI
I came here to --
COQUETTE
I don't want to know why you came here . . .
The second method is familiar to me from playscripts. (This is my
first attempt at a screenplay.) I don't see the point of the matching
dash in the top example (surely the first dash suffices to indicate an
interruption); but if that's the way it should be done, then fair
enough. But is it?

Unlike the standard convention for typing an ellipsis like this: ". .
.", in word processing (as opposed to typing) you do not use spaces
between the "dots" because they can lead to faulty line breaks, as has
happened here, whereas omitting the spaces keeps them tied together
nice and tight. A "four point ellipsis," or indeed on occasion five,
are commonly used to indicate a trailing thought that is spoken aloud,
or a trailing dialogue when interrupted by another character. Dashes
and ellipses can be used for the same purpose. In this case, they're
basically interchangeable. However, do not confuse script dialogue
traditions with the conventions of how an ellipsis is used in a
quotation. Feathers or no, they ain't the same bird!

Post by ap
Also I'm surprised at the four-point ellipsis. To me, in my experience
away from screenplays, a four-point ellipsis would be used when
something known is omitted, that reaches the end of a sentence. But in
dialogue, since we can rarely be sure where the character's phrase or
sentence would have ended, surely a three-point ellipsis would do. Or
does ellipsis work differently in screenplays?

Your choice. That's why it's called "creative writing." '-)

Post by ap
*
I'd be interested in your views. (Other than, "this is too trivial to
be bothered with", which I'm sure some of you think.) I'm a big fan of
Pinter, who believed in precise notation of pauses, interruptions,
ellipses, and so on. I also know from the theatre that you don't want
actors thinking they should pause where they shouldn't.

You can drive yourself nuts over stuff like this if you really put
your mind to it. Overall, you're better off to just write and let the
punctuation flow from the (Courier) font as it may.

Caroline
"We'll fix it in the rewrites."

Post by ap
Cheers.
Pemch.

[unknown]

These are my personal views, I am an amateur.

Post by ap
1] When David Trottier, in his book about screenwriting, talks about
the dash, he types it like this: "--". Now, I'm aware that on the
internet, and where you have a limited font available, the recognised
sign for a dash is two hyphens; but does he mean that you should type
a dash like that even when your word processor is capable of producing
an em dash? Is that the convention?

I've had this thought too. Some of it's carried over from book manuscript
form where you indicate italics by underlining. You do not put italics in
the text. I think it comes down to what makes the dialogue and action more
readable. If an emdash made with two hyphens yanks the reader out of your
story, it doesn't belong there.

I've been naughty in allowing myself measured use of italics to emphasize
dialogue. It comes down to how much "line reading" you need to give the
actors. All the words have to flow. Would you rather

JOHN
(yelling)
Hey!

or

JOHN
HEY!!!

?

Post by ap
2] In David Trottier's book aboot screenwriting, there's an example of
dialogue on page 68 that shows dashes being used at the start of lines
of dialogue. Is that usual? He doesn't quite cover that style in his
notes on setting out dialogue, as far as can see.
NATALIE
Right -- I mean, I mean under the circumstances it was good. I don't
mean good good, I mean well . . . .
SAM
I really didn't have any other --
NATALIE
-- Exactly. And if we had --
SAM
-- We certainly would've -- or wouldn't've . . . .
NATALIE
Absolutely.
So, what I am asking about is those dashes at the beginning of
dialogue lines. In the dialogue punctuation notes on page 144,

I think some other languages use a leading emdash the same as we would use
quotation marks.

But -- I think in the example above it's to indicate that the character
continues from dialogue above.

Ellipses are like wrylies, you need to fix them if you can.

Post by ap
VIVI
I came here to --
COQUETTE
I don't want to know why you came here . . .
The second method is familiar to me from playscripts. (This is my
first attempt at a screenplay.) I don't see the point of the matching
dash in the top example (surely the first dash suffices to indicate an
interruption); but if that's the way it should be done, then fair
enough. But is it?
Also I'm surprised at the four-point ellipsis. To me, in my experience
away from screenplays, a four-point ellipsis would be used when
something known is omitted, that reaches the end of a sentence. But in
dialogue, since we can rarely be sure where the character's phrase or
sentence would have ended, surely a three-point ellipsis would do. Or
does ellipsis work differently in screenplays?

I would venture that there's not really reason to use four point ellipses in
a screenplay, especially at the ends of sentences when a period would
suffice. I am guilty of trailing with a hyphen. Once again, how much do
you need to interpret?

Post by ap
I'd be interested in your views. (Other than, "this is too trivial to
be bothered with", which I'm sure some of you think.) I'm a big fan of
Pinter, who believed in precise notation of pauses, interruptions,
ellipses, and so on. I also know from the theatre that you don't want
actors thinking they should pause where they shouldn't.

Ah...I have lots of bad theatre script habits too.

Once in a play, other actors suggested I black out with a sharpie all parts
of the script that weren't dialogue. I instead used multicolored
highlighters to differentiate stage direction from dialogue direction from
other characters' lines.

[Dennis Kuhn]

***@aol.com (ap) wrote in message news:<***@posting.google.com>...

Most of my points seem to be already addressed in this thread, but I'd
still like to offer my personal choices and opinions.

The double-dash at the end of a line is usually for when a person is
interrupted by another person's words. If the sound of a crashing bus
causes the person to stop speaking, I'd use double-dashes as well.
Double dashes PREceding dialogue doubly emphasizes the interruption
factor for the actors, but can also be a way of showing that the
partial lines are meant to be delivered in rapid-fire fashion, with no
pauses between.

I use a three point ellipsis when the dialogue trails off. About the
only example I can come up with for a four point one would be text
onscreen like "And they lived happily ever after...." Mostly because
that sort of thing is not followed by anything else, at least in this
movie. Maybe the sequel.

I _never_ put two periods separated by a space. Back in the 80's when
I was taking some required typing course, I got a style book that
included more detailed info on stuff like this, but I don't have it
here.

Not that this is any sort of hard proof, but I have noticed that with
a fresh install of MS Word, if you type three periods in a row, the
Autotext feature will delete the periods, and replace them with an
ellipsis character. Which drives me insane every time I get a new
computer, since I have to customize that darned feature all over
again.

One or two last words about style guides. Get one. Especially if you
find yourself second-guessing your writing on a regular basis. The
one I mentioned earlier had the rule that said there should be two
spaces between each sentence. (Kinda like this entire post.) But in
a recent discussion with a friend of mine who's in advertising, that's
been changed to one space throughout. But this old dog just can't
seem to learn that new trick. :)

Dennis